Grapple, Iterative BAB attacks and secondary natural attacks

[Infiniti2000]

But I am. I'm combining the bite with an unarmed strike, and using one of the iterative attacks I get for a high BAB to grapple.

In other words, bait and switch right? I mean, you're using the rules to combine natural weapon with manufactured weapons to obtain the iterative attacks and then not using those manufactured weapons and using something else, as if the rules didn't explicitly state manufactured weapons.

IMO, you're not justifying your position at all.

 

[Plane Sailing]

(this thread was split off from the giant crocodile CR4 thread, to enable focussed discussion about this grappling issue)

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I2k, can I:

• Make an attack with a longsword (+6 BAB), and then attempt a Trip (+1 BAB)?
• Make an attack with an unarmed strike (+6 BAB), and then attempt a Trip (+1 BAB)?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Can you answer me first? I've only been asking, like, forever. Instead of continued quizzing, why not present your rules support?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Personally, I think you should be the one to provide the proof that your reading is correct; it is, by far, the most outlandish.

However, in the interest of getting you to stop asking the same damn question over and over ( ), I'll present my PoV.

• Grapple, et al., can be used in place of an attack (whether natural or manufactured)
• When mixing manufactured and natural weapons, I can make iterative attacks with my manufactured weapons normally
• Accordingly, I've got an attack at BAB +6 and +1
• I can use Grapple, e.g., in place of either attack

So, again, answer my questions.

Can I:

• Make an attack with a longsword (+6 BAB), and then attempt a Trip (+1 BAB)?
• Make an attack with an unarmed strike (+6 BAB), and then attempt a Trip (+1 BAB)?

What rules support do you have to deny the normal interaction of manufactured weapons and the attack options?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Grapple, et al., can be used in place of an attack (whether natural or manufactured)

So, if not using improved grab, a giant octopus can make 9 grapple attempts? No.

I can use Grapple, e.g., in place of either attack

Definitely not that natural weapon attacks like you suggest above. Regarding the manufactured weapon, then yes, if taking a normal full attack (sans natural weapons).

So, again, answer my questions.

Since we're attacking with natural weapons, we have to start with that rule, with the relevant sentence here:

"Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

Thus, no using your longsword while biting, and thus no grapple checks, trips, etc. while biting. Then, we look up the section on combining natural weapons:

"Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon."

This is the entirety of what is allowed when attacking with a natural weapon. What can you combine with a natural weapon? The answer is obviously "manufactured weapons." What happens you when attempt to combine natural weapons and other types of weapons? Nothing, because there are no rules on that. This gets back to my previous statement where if you want to argue that nothing disallows it . . .

So, when you are trying to add in a trip to your natural weapon full attack, you are not substituting legally. You are, in fact, not combining natural weapons with manufactured weapons. Thus, you are not applying the above rules and anything goes (e.g. no longer a need for defining the natural weapons as secondary).

Make an attack with a longsword (+6 BAB), and then attempt a Trip (+1 BAB)?

Of course.

Make an attack with an unarmed strike (+6 BAB), and then attempt a Trip (+1 BAB)?

Of course.

 

[Hussar]

I'm with Infinity here. Of course you can do Longsword/trip - that. And, of course, you can do Unarmed Strike and trip.

What you can't do is make an unarmed strike with a natural weapon. And this makes sense. How can you be considered unarmed with fangs? There's a reason that certain creatures get improved grab - that's pretty much the only way they can do anything other than straight up attack.

How, exactly, would a snake make a trip attack with it's bite? Suddenly my cobra knows to throw its tail around and trip an opponent? Granted, a giant python (BAB +8) can grapple and constrict, but, it can't decide to forgo biting in order to make unarmed strike attacks with its tail. It could make a trip attack instead its regular attack, that's fine, but, it can't drop its bite attack and then make two unarmed strikes.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, if not using improved grab, a giant octopus can make 9 grapple attempts? No.

Yes, he can.

However, as soon as he's successful on one of them, he's grappling and follows those rules.

Definitely not that natural weapon attacks like you suggest above. Regarding the manufactured weapon, then yes, if taking a normal full attack (sans natural weapons).

Wait. A monster with, say, a single natural attack (let's take Gore as an example) cannot attempt a Trip?

 

[Cabral]

What you can't do is make an unarmed strike with a natural weapon.

There is no such thing as an unarmed strike with a natural weapon.

Okay, fuel for the fire: Where does it say you can combine unarmed strike with a natural weapon? (Remember the Unarmed Strike is not a weapon debate god knows how long ago?)

 

[Brother MacLaren]

What if you aren't the one intiating a grapple?

A 16th-level fighter grappled by a balor's whip gets 4 grapple checks on his turn to escape, correct? Iterative grapple checks? No matter what weapon he has in hand?

What about a pit fiend who was grappled by the balor? A pit fiend holding a broken mug (improvised weapon) gets iterative attacks from his BAB in addition to his natural attacks, and so could try multiple times to escape. A pit fiend without the broken mug (so only using natural weapons) does NOT get iterative attacks from his BAB and so cannot try multiple times to escape?

I'd say it's better to interpret it as the iterative attacks that the BAB could allow, or else house-rule it be one grapple check per round per monster, no matter what. Otherwise the RAW lead to a mess of inconsistent and nonsensical results.