Grapple, Iterative BAB attacks and secondary natural attacks

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Patryn further suggests that the snake can do this each round (gaining 3 grapple checks per round).

Nope. You're not allowed to use more than one weapon in a grapple. Outside of a grapple, go crazy.*

Or, to paraphrase what I said before, "Sure, the octopus can attempt 8 normal grapple attempts in place of its tentacle attacks; however, once one succeeds, he's grappling, and must follow those rules."

In other words, I see nothing that prevents you from substituting a grapple, trip, or disarm attempt for any melee attack. And, you haven't found anything that limits it to manufactured weapons, so ...

* He could similar to what Hyp is discussing, do this three times on the first round of grappling. After that, he could not.

Similarly, a human with a longsword and improved unarmed strike could make an off-hand attack with his IUS (+6), replace his second IUS (+1) with a grapple attempt, and then replace his primary +6 / +1 attacks with additional grapple checks. Next round, however, he'd be limited to two iterative grapple checks or two IUS attacks (at -4 for grappling).

 

[Infiniti2000]

Nope. You're not allowed to use more than one weapon in a grapple. Outside of a grapple, go crazy.*

That doesn't make sense. Are you saying that making a grapple check three times is using different weapons? Wasn't the point of the substitution that you are not, in fact, using the weapon you substituted? I sense a logical inconsistency with your reasoning here and with your reasoning vs. allowing natural weapon + non-manufactured weapons.

Or, to paraphrase what I said before, "Sure, the octopus can attempt 8 normal grapple attempts in place of its tentacle attacks; however, once one succeeds, he's grappling, and must follow those rules."

It's 9, not 8, right?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That doesn't make sense. Are you saying that making a grapple check three times is using different weapons?

No. Electing to use Natural Weapon A and Grapple / BAB-based attack (in order to get the three available attacks), before substituting Grapple for Natural Weapon A, is using multiple weapons. Similarly, a human warrior with a shortsword and IUS could not benefit from TWFing while grappling, even if he would like to change all his off-hand attacks into grapple attempts.

It's 9, not 8, right?

Sure. It's not really germaine (since the octopus could just elect to not take his bite attack), but if you want to be exact, he could attempt to Grapple 9 times (assuming he failed all of them, or at least all except the last). He could, in fact, do it 10 times (his BAB is less than +6, I believe), by treating all his natural weapon attacks as secondary and using his Unarmed Strike / BAB-based attack.

Similarly, the octopus could attempt to Disarm his opponent <=9 (/10) times.

 

[Neverwill]

Can anyone adequately explain why you cannot substitute a natural weapon attack for a grapple/disarm/trip

The closest I can come regarding grapple is that starting a grapple implies you are using your BAB, not natural weapons.

Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Pretty weak, though.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Similarly, the octopus could attempt to Disarm his opponent >=9 (/10) times.

Firstly, I assume you mean <=?

Secondly, can he make an unarmed strike as well as attacking with every tentacle and bite? Just as you can't use a claw as a secondary natural weapon if you're already using that hand for a manufactured weapon attack, wouldn't using all his limbs for natural weapon attacks leave no body part with which to actually make an unarmed strike?

-Hyp.

 

[SlagMortar]

Could the octopus use a headbutt?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Firstly, I assume you mean <=?

Yah. Goof on my part.

Secondly, can he make an unarmed strike as well as attacking with every tentacle and bite?

Absolutely. Head-butt for the win.

wouldn't using all his limbs for natural weapon attacks leave no body part with which to actually make an unarmed strike?

Yes - if, in fact, you needed to use a particular limb to make an unarmed strike. However, since unarmed strikes are limb-independent ("... Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts ..."), then he's free to make an US.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Absolutely. Head-butt for the win.

Octopus heads are all squishy, though!

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Octopus heads are all squishy, though!

Potential Responses:

1. Yeah, but don't forget they're all slimy-gross, too. That's gotta be worth a couple dice of extra damage, right there!
2. Fear my Hidden Cuttlebone Style!
3. And your fist isn't after beating on an iron golem for a couple rounds?

 

[Infiniti2000]

No. Electing to use Natural Weapon A and Grapple / BAB-based attack (in order to get the three available attacks), before substituting Grapple for Natural Weapon A, is using multiple weapons. Similarly, a human warrior with a shortsword and IUS could not benefit from TWFing while grappling, even if he would like to change all his off-hand attacks into grapple attempts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one interpretation you promote is that you can attack with all your natural weapons (as secondary) and gain iterative attacks with, say, an unarmed strike and then sub grapple attacks for those unarmed strikes. Right?

Is that the same sort of bait and switch that you are denying above? In other words, once you sub those grapple attacks then you are no longer able to apply the combination rule of natural weapons and manufactured weapons, thus leaving you with no iterative attacks (though by your rule you could then sub grapples for those natural weapons).

I think this is an inconsistency and said as much previously to Hyp.