Grapple, Iterative BAB attacks and secondary natural attacks

[Infiniti2000]

Could you expand on your reasoning?

I don't think I have a suitable response, quite honestly. Natural weapons use different rules than other attacks (the number of attacks is undefined, for example). However, you're right that nothing actually says that a natural weapon attack is not suitable for substitution on trips, grapples, or anything else.

I posed myself this question: How many (natural weapon) attacks does a monster with (e.g.) three natural weapons get? To answer this, we need to look at a few rules (possibly quoted previously in the thread).

Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Okay, from this quote the BAB is irrelevant and we have to look at the individual monster description. I looked and looked but found nothing that actually says something like "a monster normally gets one attack per natural weapon." So, the number actually depends upon examples.

Full Attack
This line shows all the physical attacks the creature makes when it uses a full-round action to make a full attack. It gives the number of attacks along with the weapon. . .

Let's have our example monster possess 3 natural weapon attacks. This line in its stat block would therefore have to list all 3. But, does a monster (or even PC) with natural weapons use the same type of Full Attack Action as, say, a someone wielding a sword? I don't think so.

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

Clearly, using natural weapons must be "some special reason." The natural weapon full attack is not the same because it is governed under different rules (no iterative attacks, rules on combining weapons, primary/secondary vs. primary/off-hand, etc.).

Is this qualification of "not the same" good enough to warrant not applying the footnote on grapple, trip, and disarm? I think so.

 

[PallidPatience]

The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

There's your line telling you that a creature can only make one attack per natural weapon. It spells it out as explicitly as you can.

But, does a monster (or even PC) with natural weapons use the same type of Full Attack Action as, say, a someone wielding a sword? I don't think so.

There is one type of Full Attack. It is a full-round action that allows a creature (whether monster or otherwise) to utilise all attacks available through the following means: multiple natural attacks, iterative attacks with manufactured weapons due to BAB, a combination of natural weapons and manufactured attacks, and other specific attack modes (flurry of blows, rapid shot, etc.).

Clearly, using natural weapons must be "some special reason." The natural weapon full attack is not the same because it is governed under different rules (no iterative attacks, rules on combining weapons, primary/secondary vs. primary/off-hand, etc.).

Which natural weapon full attack are we speaking of? If a monster has a single natural weapon, it need not take a Full Attack to use all one of its natural weapons. It may take a standard action to make a normal melee attack using its natural weapon, instead. Only in the case of having multiple natural weapons must a creature take a full attack to use all of them.

If that is not to what you are referring, you've lost me. The croc needs only take a standard action to attack each round. As for the whole situation referring to unarmed strike and its status as a manufactured weapon, I think there are two categories: natural weapons (claws, bites, etc.), and manufactured weapons (swords, bows, etc.). Unarmed strikes are not "natural" weapons, because the knowledge of using them effectively is not instinctive, and they are not truly primarily weapons in their own right. Therefore, as far as I can tell, they are "manufactured" in that one needs to develop their use.

 

[Hussar]

There's another reason why allowing creatures to use their iterative attacks in addition to natural attacks - Constrict.

Imagine allowing a creature to have its full attack, as well as iterative grapple checks if it had constrict. It automatically deals damage on a grapple. Why would a giant constrictor snake suddenly be able to constrict twice per round if it switched to unarmed strikes?

Or am I confused again? Should the Giant Constrictor snake, after grappling a target, suddenly get two attacks per round (+8 BAB) instead of its one regular attack?

 

[shilsen]

Or am I confused again? Should the Giant Constrictor snake, after grappling a target, suddenly get two attacks per round (+8 BAB) instead of its one regular attack?

Yes, it gets two attacks while grappling. Each of which does 2d8+20 dmg (1d8+10 as normal plus 1d8+10 for constrict).

If you're grappled by a giant constrictor snake, your best hope usually is that your allies kill it in a round, because you likely won't survive two.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I have no idea why you think he would get only 1 check if his BAB were +6 or higher. No one here is saying that; certainly not me at any rate. Patryn, however, is suggesting 3 (2 for iterative at BAB +6/+1 and 1 to sub the bite); Hyp is suggesting 2 + the bite as secondary. I suggest 2, with no bite, or 0, with a bite.

The Improved Grab ability renders the above language of "bite" and "no bite" somewhat confusing in this regard, but I *think* I see the meaning now.

It can get iterative "damage your opponent" options, which happen to do bite damage if it has established the hold with Improved Grab, but not iterative "attack your opponent with natural weapons" options with its bite. So they are not really multiple bite attacks, and that was the source of my confusion.

I do understand the different points of view on subbing or adding natural weapons to the iterative routine, just wanted to first establish the matter of iterative grapple checks for things that don't normally get iterative attacks.

 

[Infiniti2000]

There is one type of Full Attack. It is a full-round action that allows a creature (whether monster or otherwise) to utilise all attacks available through the following means: multiple natural attacks, iterative attacks with manufactured weapons due to BAB, a combination of natural weapons and manufactured attacks, and other specific attack modes (flurry of blows, rapid shot, etc.).

That's a close paraphrase, but it's not accurate. If a monster with natural weapons and a (potential manufactured weapon) decides to take a full attack, he has various options and those choices use completely different rules. Because of that, I say those are not identical full attack actions. How can they be when they use different rules? The only rules in common are those listed in the Full Attack section that do not conflict with the more specific rules on that particular Full Attack.

Which natural weapon full attack are we speaking of? If a monster has a single natural weapon, it need not take a Full Attack to use all one of its natural weapons. It may take a standard action to make a normal melee attack using its natural weapon, instead. Only in the case of having multiple natural weapons must a creature take a full attack to use all of them.

Of course. :\

If that is not to what you are referring, you've lost me. The croc needs only take a standard action to attack each round.

Again, of course. What are you asking about?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Yes, it gets two attacks while grappling. Each of which does 2d8+20 dmg (1d8+10 as normal plus 1d8+10 for constrict).

Note that both Hyp and Patryn claim that a giant constrictor snake could bite (as a secondary weapon), use improved grab, and then obtain two more grapple checks (iterative) in the same round. This requires a full attack, of course, and that the bite/grab succeeds. If the bite/grab fails, then it can still take those two grapple attempts, or trip or disarm. Patryn further suggests that the snake can do this each round (gaining 3 grapple checks per round). Hyp and I agree that the max per round after that is two (I think).

 

[Infiniti2000]

The Improved Grab ability renders the above language of "bite" and "no bite" somewhat confusing in this regard, but I *think* I see the meaning now.

Ah, I see where the confusion came from then. I apologize for the poor wording on my part. Based on the rest of your post, we're in agreement at least on the debate.

And, I don't think anyone's coming up with anything new. Patryn raised a good point to which I have no good answer. Can anyone adequately explain why you cannot substitute a natural weapon attack for a grapple/disarm/trip? If not, and if my previous (poor) attempt is unsuccessful, I'll concede the point to Patryn. I'd also be interested if anyone actually plays it that way and how that works out (e.g. a druid with improved trip would be nasty).

 

[Hussar]

Yeesh, according to this, then, I've played every grappling creature wrong.

I think I'll just continue doing so thanks. Good grief, large grappling creatures are bad enough, but, adding in iterative attacks would be insane. That would mean that a Tendriculos, after grappling something, would get it's 3 standard attacks, plus two more afterwards. Gack!

I think letting mr. constrictor snake get its one shot per round is nasty enough thanks. Improved Grab is nasty, but, this would make improved grab pretty much instant death since most of the large creatures automatically (or close enough) win grapple attempts.

 

[brendan candries]

I think you are supposed to start with the iterative attacks (be it weapons or IUS) and then the natural attacks.

And Improved Grab abilities only work on the specified Natural Attack(s).
Constrictor Snake : To use this ability, a constrictor snake must hit with its bite attack.
Brown Bear: To use this ability, a brown bear must hit with a claw attack.

So using the iterative attacks for grappling would only work if the creature is already grappling when it starts the round. Unless you use the iteratives to initiate grapple attempts of course.

Also consider that you would be using IUS damage on your iteratives, the likes of a d3/d4/d6 depending on size. Of course the str bonus is what matters in these cases and the fact that you can opt to pin/move opponents with those low damaging attacks and use the naturals for damaging.