Grapple, Iterative BAB attacks and secondary natural attacks

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one interpretation you promote is that you can attack with all your natural weapons (as secondary) and gain iterative attacks with, say, an unarmed strike and then sub grapple attacks for those unarmed strikes. Right?

Yes. You could also sub grapple checks (or Disarms, or Trips) in for your secondary natural weapons, as well.

Is that the same sort of bait and switch that you are denying above?

You keep saying "bait and switch" like that supports your point. Other than being an interesting rhetorical trick, what does it bring to the table?

1. At the beginning of your attack, decide how you are attacking - which weapons are in use.*
   [*]Make those attacks (substituting combat options as appropriate).

The order of operations doesn't change depending on whether you have one natural, multiple natural, one manufactured, or multiple manufactured weapons.

* This is the step at which the grappling rules on using multiple weapons comes into play. If you are grappling, you cannot, at this point, elect to use more than one weapon.

 

[brendan candries]

Apparently they changed the rules in Rules of the Game


Monsters and Grappling

The rules don't say much about how monsters conduct grappling combat.

It's easiest, however, to allow a monster one grappling attack per natural weapon it has, provided that the natural weapon can hold on to the target in some fashion. The monster uses its listed grapple bonus when attacking with a primary natural weapon (or weapons) and its listed grapple bonus -5 for any secondary natural weapons. If the monster's grapple attack deals damage to a foe, the damage is lethal (unless the monster takes a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage) and equal to the damage rating for the natural weapon. For example, a troll grappling with a claw has a grapple bonus of +14 and deals 1d6+6 point of damage with the attack.

A slightly more complex method for handling grappling monsters is to allow the monster one grapple attack for every 5 points of base attack bonus it has. If the monster has natural weaponry, it deals lethal damage from one natural attack. The monster can use each natural weapon only once during its turn. If the monster's base attack allows it more grapple attacks than it has natural weapons, it must deal normal unarmed damage for any extra attacks.

In general, monsters follow the same rules as PCs when conducting a grapple.

Monsters in a grapple may use their natural weapons, but only by using the “Attack Your Opponent” option (which applies a –4 penalty on the attack roll). When using the “Damage Your Opponent” option, the creature deals unarmed strike damage appropriate to its size (see Part 2 of this column)

Some options available while grappling (such as “Damage Your Opponent” and “Pin Your Opponent”) state that they may be used in place of an attack. The monster gets as many “attacks” in a full attack action as it would get if it were attacking with a weapon, based on its base attack bonus: +1 to +5, one attack; +6 to +10, two attacks; +11 to +15, three attacks, and +16 and up, four attacks. Each one after the first would suffer a cumulative –5 penalty on the roll (just like a character with a high BAB making multiple weapon attacks).
For example, a dire tiger (BAB +12) grappling a PC would be allowed three separate attempts to damage its opponent, escape from the grapple, or pin its opponent; the second would take a –5 penalty on the grapple check, while the third would take a –10 penalty.

Damage Your Opponent: You can make an opposed grapple check to deal damage to your opponent when grappling. If you win the opposed check, you deal nonlethal damage equivalent to an unarmed strike (2d6 for Colossal attackers, 1d8 Gargantuan, 1d6 Huge, 1d4 Large, 1d3 Medium, 1d2 Small, 1 Tiny or smaller; plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

Monks (and a few other characters), deal more damage with unarmed strikes than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, a monk can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

If a creature has natural weaponry, it deals lethal natural weapon damage with a successful opposed grapple check (its natural weapons are just like unarmed strikes). A creature with natural weaponry can choose to deal nonlethal damage in a grapple by taking a -4 penalty. Even if a creature has natural weaponry, it doesn’t use those natural weapons as part of this action. It must use the “Attack Your Opponent” action (described above) to do so.

Improved Grab: The improved grab special attack allows a monster to make a grab attack as part of a regular melee attack with a particular natural weapon (usually a bite or claw). If the attack hits, the natural weapon deals damage normally, and the monster immediately makes an opposed check to establish a hold. The attack doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Since the attack already dealt damage when it hit, a successful hold deals no extra damage. Each successful grapple check the attacker makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. (This works just like making a grapple check to deal damage.)

A creature with the improved grab special attack has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but it is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. This is handy for really big monsters, such as giant squids and krakens.

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space (rather than entering the foe's space). According to page 310 in the Monster Manual, the grabbed creature's involuntary movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A creature with the improved grab special attack and reach drags a grabbed foe a considerable distance.

A creature with the improved grab special attack can move without making an opposed grapple check, provided it can drag the opponent's weight. The creature's movement and the involuntary movement by anyone it drags along provokes attacks of opportunity normally.

First impression? They moved every monster without improved grab towards grapple-prone sissies.

Adult Dragons (Large) 19HD str 23 bab/grapple +19/+29

6 attacks starting at +24

+24 1 bite 2d6 + 6
+19 2 claws 1d8 + 3
+19 2 wings 1d6 + 3
+19 1 tail 1d8 +9

This without multiattack.

Grappling:

4 checks +29/+24/+19/+14

d4 + 6 each?

And what if the 8HD monster with 3 natural attacks escapes a grapple with his first grapple check (read bab 6). What next?

 

[Infiniti2000]

You keep saying "bait and switch" like that supports your point. Other than being an interesting rhetorical trick, what does it bring to the table?

I don't intend it as direct support, but as pointing out an inconsistency. You use the same concept (call it bait n' switch or whatever you want) to disallow "two weapons" in a grapple and yet, after the substitution, there is only 1 weapon. If it's 1 weapon when subbing for a manufactured weapon, then it's 1 weapon in a grapple.

I personally don't buy either, so I'm not being inconsistent, but I don't agree with you arguing one and not the other. I'm bringing this up because I don't think you (a) see the inconsistency, or (b) agree with it; and I'm not sure which.

And what if the 8HD monster with 3 natural attacks escapes a grapple with his first grapple check (read bab 6). What next?

He could trip or disarm, or take any move action like thanking his lucky stars he escaped (free action) and then getting out of there.

 

[brendan candries]

He could trip or disarm, or take any move action like thanking his lucky stars he escaped (free action) and then getting out of there.

Trip or Disarm using what?

And lucky how? It just lost all it's remaining attacks.

 

[brendan candries]

double post

 

[Infiniti2000]

Trip or Disarm using what?

Any creature can take iterative attacks using unarmed attacks (unarmed strike, disarm, trip, or grapple). He just used one to escape the grapple. The others (any remaining) could be used to trip or disarm (unarmed).

And lucky how? It just lost all it's remaining attacks.

Well, he was trying to escape, and succeeded. How is that no lucky? And, then use the Move Action to get away.

 

[brendan candries]

Any creature can take iterative attacks using unarmed attacks (unarmed strike, disarm, trip, or grapple). He just used one to escape the grapple. The others (any remaining) could be used to trip or disarm (unarmed).

Well, he was trying to escape, and succeeded. How is that no lucky? And, then use the Move Action to get away.

C'mon that whole iterative attack routine for monsters is near ridiculous. You really want to turn the whole bestiary in pseudo-monks? I realize that minotaurs and the likes are designed to fight this way but I don't see a wolf making headbutts and elbow strikes.

IOC we decided on following the bab routine for monsters in grapples, eliminating a natural attack each time a grapple check is made. We allow monsters to use full natural attack damage in grapples and fill in unarmed strike damage should the bab routine allow more attacks than the monster has natural attacks.

e.g.

a 8HD monster with 2 primary claws and a bite would sacrifice a claw attack to escape the grapple and have a claw and bite left to attack with.

a 8HD monster with a single natural attack, well ya, gets 2 grapple checks even if it normally attacks only once and might prefer to keep grappling this way. Odd one.

Anyway the rules are a mess when applying PC rules on monsters.

How does haste (a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding) work on monsters? Would that be an extra attack with their primary natural weapon even if used before or none at all?