Grapple/Power Attack?

[TracerBullet42]

Can you power attack during a grapple check to do added damage?

 

[RigaMortus]

I beleieve you can.

Normally Power Attack doesn't work with light weapons. However, there is a clause in Power Attack that permits you to use it with unarmed strikes. And under "Damage Your Opponent" for Grapple, it says you treat the attack like an unarmed strike. So I would have to say yes.

 

[Pinotage]

Yes, if you attack with a weapon during the grapple. Otherwise grapple checks remain unaffected by power attack. With Power Attack you give up accuracy for damage - I don't see how you could give up accuracy for damage in a grapple. You can't reduce your grapple check because that implies you're not such a good grappler anymore so how can you do more damage?

Pinotage

 

[TracerBullet42]

With Power Attack you give up accuracy for damage - I don't see how you could give up accuracy for damage in a grapple. You can't reduce your grapple check because that implies you're not such a good grappler anymore so how can you do more damage?

Or could it be that you're so good at it that you can give up accuracy to gain a little more power?

I'm not sure how to rule this one...and since my new PC is a dwarven beast wrestler, I figured I should nail this rule down before it comes up...

 

[Pinotage]

I beleieve you can.

Normally Power Attack doesn't work with light weapons. However, there is a clause in Power Attack that permits you to use it with unarmed strikes. And under "Damage Your Opponent" for Grapple, it says you treat the attack like an unarmed strike. So I would have to say yes.

It says you deal damage 'equivalent to an unarmed strike'. I don't think that's the same. A grapple is not like an unarmed strike, but the damage is the same as if you had hit with an unarmed strike.

Pinotage

 

[RigaMortus]

Yes, if you attack with a weapon during the grapple.

The problem is, the only kind of weapon you can attack with is a Light weapon. And Power Attack does not apply to Light weapons. You can damage your opponent as if you were using an unarmed strike, and Power Attack does apply to that.

 

[Pinotage]

Or could it be that you're so good at it that you can give up accuracy to gain a little more power?

Well, that's the thing. Grappling is all about brute force, not accuracy. The harder you wrestle, the more grapple checks you win, the more damage you do. But, that's not giving up accuracy. Although, having said that, one could imagine it as a 'feint' of sorts. Drop your grappling, lure the opponent into taking advantage of it, and then use the feint to hit him really hard.

Pinotage

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I rule that you can't Power Attack during a grapple, because Power Attack requires that you accept a penalty on your to-hit rolls in order to gain a bonus on your damage rolls.

You don't make a to-hit roll while grappling, so you can't take a penalty. If you can't take the penalty, you can't get the bonus to damage.

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls.

EDIT:

Now, some might read the above and decide, "I subtract 5 from all melee attack rolls, and I therefore add 5 to all melee damage rolls, regardless of whether or not I make any melee attack rolls at all."

Then, you'll need to demonstrate that the "damage your opponent" option while grappling is a melee damage roll (which, presumably, is a damage roll resulting from a melee weapon). Note that if you rule, as someone did not too long ago, that an unarmed strike is a light weapon, but is not a melee weapon, then grappling is likewise not a melee weapon (it does its damage as an unarmed strike).

Frankly, I think that particular ruling is ridiculous (as light weapons are a subset of melee weapons), so if someone really, really wanted to Power Attack while grappling, I'd probably allow it - but I would likewise apply the penalty to "all melee attack rolls" to their grapple check.

 

[RigaMortus]

It says you deal damage 'equivalent to an unarmed strike'. I don't think that's the same. A grapple is not like an unarmed strike, but the damage is the same as if you had hit with an unarmed strike.

Pinotage

Exactly. It says you deal damage 'equivalent to an unarmed strike'. If you add +5 damage (from Power Attack) to your unarmed strike (let's assume it is 1d3 damage), then you deal 1d3+Str+5 damage from unarmed strike.

 

[Pinotage]

The problem is, the only kind of weapon you can attack with is a Light weapon. And Power Attack does not apply to Light weapons. You can damage your opponent as if you were using an unarmed strike, and Power Attack does apply to that.

As my earlier post indicated, it's 'deal damage equivalent to an unarmed strike'. I believe it's only referring to the damage you deal. I don't think grappling is the same as an unarmed strike. Seriously, you're not likely to kill an opponent soon in a grapple, so it's all about immobilisation rather than damage.

Pinotage