Grapples, Prayer Spells and Iterative Attacks

[Roman]

A situation came up last session where some of the characters (my character included) was involved in a grapple with a hag. A priest (Arthurian Legends campaign) cast Prayer on us and the hags at the beginning of combat. Nobody in the group (neither the DM nor the players) was certain, however, whether Prayer affects grapple checks or not and in the end the DM ruled that it does not. Just out of interest, though, and for future reference: Does Prayer affect grapple checks? Also, if a character has iterative attacks, can these be used as multiple attempts to break out of the grapple?

Thanks!

 

[Diirk]

You and your each of your allies gain a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saves, and skill checks, while each of your foes takes a –1 penalty on such rolls.

I believe the intention is that a grapple check isn't an attack roll and thus would not be affected by such spells unless they specifically stated they applied to grapple checks. However there is some poor wording in the grapple description that leaves room for argument on this.

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action.

So yes, just like iterative attacks, you can make iterative grapple checks.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Personally, I think the best way to rule is that attack roll modifiers affect grapple checks full--so prayer and bless would both add to a grapple check. (This contradicts the FAQ, but the FAQ has been rather dramatically and obviously wrong on other issues such as Alter Self/Polymorph affects modifying effective HD for spell effects).

Other possible rulings:
Effects that affect ability checks modify grapple checks. (This also contradicts the FAQ, but avoids the "I've five negative levels so I can't hit anything; I know, I'll grapple so I have no penalties" situation).

Effects that affect both ability checks and attack rolls modify grapple checks. (Thus negative levels and prayeer would both modify grapple checks, but not too much else).

Nothing that doesn't change strength, size, base attack, or (explicitly) grapple checks (such as the psionic power Grip of Iron) affect grapple checks. This is where you get the "I've got five negative levels and six quills from a howler, giving me -11 to everything else, but I'm just as good at grappling as I ever was" situation.

Nothing that doesn't change strength, size, base attack, or (explicitly) grapple checks (such as the psionic power Grip of Iron) affect grapple checks.... Except being prone. That gives you a -4 because the FAQ says so. This is what you get if you take the FAQ absolutely literally and it's the most ludicrous interpretation of all.

 

[Legildur]

I've stopped reading the FAQ after seeing all the errors in it splashed across these boards. Some of the Rules of the Game houserules are interesting, but the FAQ is nearly a write-off as far as I am concerned.

And a special thanks to all the rules lawyers (yes, thanks Hypersmurf) out there to improving my rules interpretations on behalf of my groups.

 

[youspoonybard]

Power Attack for full in a grapple!

I make modifiers apply to grapple checks.

 

[kjenks]

Actually, adding attack modifiers to grapple checks only contradicts part of the self-contradictory FAQ.

Main 3.5e FAQ, page 20, "Vow of Poverty" entry
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The touch attack made to start a grapple is an attack roll (so the bonus would apply to this roll), but a grapple check is not an attack roll, and thus the bonus wouldn’t apply to the grapple check.
===

Main 3.5e FAQ, page 29, "Grappling while prone" entry
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Bob has to win an opposed grapple check against Grog (still at –4 for being prone) to stand up.
===

So in one entry, written by the new sage, Andy Collins, attack modifiers (like the Exalted bonus from VoP) do not apply to grapple checks. In an older entry, written by the previous sage, Skip Williams, attack modifiers (like that -4 while prone) do apply to grapple checks.

The PH says a grapple check is like a melee attack roll, then it shows the difference (a grapple check has a different size modifier than normal attack rolls). It does not list any other differences.

It's interesting to contrast the old 3e FAQ entries about grappling, which include auto-fail on a natural 1, auto-success on a natural 20, with Skip Williams' recent Rules of the Game articles. Skip has been wildly inconsistent on this, and Andy Collins only adds to the confusion.

I agree with Legildur that you should ignore the FAQ on this topic.

Just read the PH rules and treat a grapple check like a melee attack roll with a different size modifier. All the usual things that apply to melee attacks should also apply to grapple checks, including bonuses, penalties, double damage on Spirited Charge, Power Attack (as unarmed strike), True Strike, Prayer, Bless, auto-fail on a natural 1, auto-success on a natural 20, and critical threat on a natural 20.

But I'll respect differing opinions, especially since the so-called experts can't agree.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

One of the main reasons I dislike the "Grapple is an Attack Roll with Different Size Modifiers" ruling is the auto-fail / -succeed rules. I don't think these should generally apply to contested rolls - including things like disarm (opposed attack rolls), grapple (opposed grapple checks), stealth (opposed skill rolls), etc.

Moreover, things which are built to be good at grappling tend to nigh-automatically overwhelm things that are not built to be good at grappling. Allowing them to Power Attack on that grapple seems pretty egregious.

 

[kjenks]

One of the main reasons I dislike the "Grapple is an Attack Roll with Different Size Modifiers" ruling is the auto-fail / -succeed rules. I don't think these should generally apply to contested rolls - including things like disarm (opposed attack rolls), grapple (opposed grapple checks), stealth (opposed skill rolls), etc.

For what it's worth, the old 3e FAQ said that disarm and grapple checks both had auto-success on natural 20/auto-fail on natural 1 -- for the attacker. The defender has nothing special happen on natural 20 or natural 1. This seems pretty consistent with treating these opposed rolls like melee attacks.

On the other hand, natural 20 and natural 1 don't mean anything special for skill checks. You don't ever auto-fail or auto-succeed.

Moreover, things which are built to be good at grappling tend to nigh-automatically overwhelm things that are not built to be good at grappling. Allowing them to Power Attack on that grapple seems pretty egregious.

It's not too terrible as long as you remember that grapple damage is like unarmed strike damage -- usually nonlethal, even for monsters with natural weapons. Massive amounts of nonlethal damage allows the DM to put characters into heroic jeapardy situations without killing them, which can be loads of fun for everyone.

"You wake up, shackled to a blood-stained altar. Your clothes and armor have been replaced by mysterious, rune-covered wrappings. A monotonous chanting, of a hundred angry souls, drones on from somewhere nearby. A kettle drum is pounding out a slow, steady rhythm. About 30 feet away, a robed priest sways in a hypnotic trance, breathing in the sickly sweet, heady scent of some powerful incense. You don't think he can hear you over the sounds of chanting and drumming. The manacle on your left wrist seems to be just a little bit loose. One of the candles nearby is flickering madly, its flame forming into the shape of a nymph's face. She seems to be trying to talk to you, but you can't hear her voice. What do you do?"

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

For what it's worth, the old 3e FAQ said that disarm and grapple checks both had auto-success on natural 20/auto-fail on natural 1 -- for the attacker.

A distinction I disagree with, as I disagree with much of the FAQ. If Disarm and Grapple checks are like attack rolls, then they are like attack rolls for both parties. There's no basis in the rules to say that it is more like an attack roll for you than for him. Therefore, they either are like attack rolls, when it comes to 1s and 20s, or they aren't.

I say they aren't, though I appreciate the arguments of those who say they are.

On the other hand, natural 20 and natural 1 don't mean anything special for skill checks. You don't ever auto-fail or auto-succeed.

I know. I believe that the precedent set by skills-as-opposed-rolls should be carried over to Disarm and Grapple, etc.

It's not too terrible as long as you remember that grapple damage is like unarmed strike damage -- usually nonlethal, even for monsters with natural weapons.

Excepting, of course, all those monsters with Improved Grab, who *do* do normal natural weapon damage - lethal, usually - on a grapple check.

Moreover:

If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.

A -4 penalty is pretty much nothing when, say, a hill giant is grappling a wizard. The ability to Power Attack *in addition* to his normal damage is what I don't care for.

 

[VorpalStare]

Excepting, of course, all those monsters with Improved Grab, who *do* do normal natural weapon damage - lethal, usually - on a grapple check.

Like an Annis Hag.

My opinion on this issue is that grapple checks should be treated as similarly as possible to regular melee attacks. In a tactical situation, these two forms of attack compete for the actions of both the PC's and the NPC's. Anything that favors one over the other creates the potential for a further imbalance in their effectiveness and creates opportunities for rules abuse.

So I would let prayer, bless, etc that affect attack rolls have the same effect on offensive and defensive grapple checks as they do on regular melee attack rolls and armor class respectively. This is not supported directly in the RAW, but certainly is within the spirit of the text of those spells.

Barring that, Haste, is always a good choice here, since it gives you an extra attack (which can be used as a grapple check) at full BAB.