Grappling a ghost...

[Deset Gled]

True, Ghosts can't be grappled by material opponants, but they can be grappled by other incorporeal creatures.

No. Incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled. Not even by other incorporeal creatures.

Force effects such as Bigby's hands should also be able to grapple them since force effects affect incorpoeal creatures normally.

No. Incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled. Not even by force effects.

Ghost Touch weapons on the other hand do affect incorporeal creatures normaly and should be allowed to be used to grapple a ghost. At the very least the wearer should have the -20 penalty with only grappling with part of it's body. Maybe it's a house rule, but it make sense (at least to me... )

No. Incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled. Not even with Ghost Touch weapons. That would indeed be a house rule.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

And the answer is still no, unless you can find an actual rules citation to support your position. Until you do, the rules are very clear on this matter. Incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled in any way, shape, or form.

Guess the Spectral Lurker from Fiend Folio just doesn't exist, then.

Edit: In more detail, the Spectral Lurker, which is Incorporeal, has Ghost Touch Attacks (Su), which allows it to bite or tentacle corporeal opponents. And smiley added to ratchet down the tone.

Brad

 

[Caliban]

Guess the Spectral Lurker from Fiend Folio just doesn't exist, then.

Edit: In more detail, the Spectral Lurker, which is Incorporeal, has Ghost Touch Attacks (Su), which allows it to bite or tentacle corporeal opponents. And smiley added to ratchet down the tone.

Brad

*shrug* You can always create a monster that has special abilities that allow it to "break" the rules. A special exception is just that, and exception to the rule.

In this case, the spectral lurker can effectively turn it's tentacles corporeal for the purpose of grappling.

 

[Enkhidu]

In the SRD, ghosts are actually listed as "ethereal" creatures, not incorporeal. This might mean that a ghost touch gauntlet could be used to grab hold of a ghost, but I don't think that I would classify that as "grappling." You might still be able to catch a ghost with a ghost touch net, though.

Of course, a quick ethereal jaunt would make it possible to face the ghost as a corporeal creautre...

 

[Caliban]

In the SRD, ghosts are actually listed as "ethereal" creatures, not incorporeal. This might mean that a ghost touch gauntlet could be used to grab hold of a ghost, but I don't think that I would classify that as "grappling." You might still be able to catch a ghost with a ghost touch net, though.

Of course, a quick ethereal jaunt would make it possible to face the ghost as a corporeal creautre...

Ghost touch weapons don't affect ethereal creatures, only incorporeal creatures. A ghost that manifests is incorporeal, if it's not manifesting it's ethereal.

 

[Enkhidu]

Forogt about the incorporeality in manifestation.

Looks like the only sure fire way is to go ethereal.

 

[Dwarmaj]

Under Incorporeality, it states that: "Corporeal creatures cannot trip or grapple incorporeal creatures." and "Incorporeal creatures can be affected by other incorporeal creatures normally." So an incorporeal creature should be allowed to grapple another incoporeal creatures.

Force affects affect incorporeal creatures normally, the SRD even states that incoporeal creatures are unable to pass through force affects. How is an incorporeal creature going to get out of a Bigby's Hand that is grappling it?

 

[Deset Gled]

Under Incorporeality, it states that: "Corporeal creatures cannot trip or grapple incorporeal creatures." and "Incorporeal creatures can be affected by other incorporeal creatures normally." So an incorporeal creature should be allowed to grapple another incoporeal creatures.

Check the Types, Subtypes and Ablities section (I believe you are looking at the Abilities and Conditions section). There it states "Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled."

This is not a special case against corporeal creatures, it is a simple fact. It allows no exceptions for other incorporeal creatures, or for force effects, or for ghost touch weapons. Incorporeal creatures can indeed be affected normally by other incorporeal creatures or force effects, but incorporeal creatures cannot normally be grappled (one incorporeal creature can't even attempt to grapple another, because incorporeal creatures cannot grapple).

Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. That's all there is to it. There are no two ways about it. I don't know any simpler way of puting it.

Another point to consider is that if Ghost Touch weapons actually did allow grappling with incorporeal creatures (just to be clear - they don't), it would mean Ghost Touch armor would be a weakness against incorporeal foes rather than a bonus, because incorporeal creatures could then grapple someone in Ghost Touch armor.

 

[Lela]

The thing about D&D rules is that they are generally very logical. This guy is only partially on this plane, so you can't grab him.

So, either incorporeal creatures can't grapple each other because their presence on two planes is so erratic that prolonged physical (an expression only) contact is impossible. In that case it sucks to be two ghosts in love. They can't even hold hands. Very tragic and might make a good story.

Or, incorporeal creatures can affect each other as if they were both on the same plane. So, they treat each other like normal material plane creatures. Personally, I'd go with this view and I think the rules support it.

 

[Caliban]

The thing about D&D rules is that they are generally very logical. This guy is only partially on this plane, so you can't grab him.

So, either incorporeal creatures can't grapple each other because their presence on two planes is so erratic that prolonged physical (an expression only) contact is impossible. In that case it sucks to be two ghosts in love. They can't even hold hands. Very tragic and might make a good story.

Or, incorporeal creatures can affect each other as if they were both on the same plane. So, they treat each other like normal material plane creatures. Personally, I'd go with this view and I think the rules support it.

I really recommend re-reading the incorporeal entry again.

Outside of ghosts, Incorporeal creatures are not present on two planes. They are only on one plane, they are just insubstantial.

Can you hold mist in a net, even though it's not incorporeal?

Incorporeal creatures simply do not have a solid form. If you cannot contain the entire creature (such as with Otiluke's Resilient Sphere), then it's like grabbing mist - it simply flows past or through you.