Grappling: Iterative attacks and Pinning

[Gansk]

Can they or can't they?

As for the "Grapples use iterative attacks" thing, read the first paragraph under "If You're Grappling" on page 156 of the 3.5 PHB:

I would like to agree with you Caliban, as I feel that the salamander should have two grapple checks when constricting, but then I read page 312 of the MM, which says "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

I believe this is the basis of the counter argument - otherwise the tyrannosaurus has three chances to swallow you.

 

[shilsen]

Wow! I gotta remember that. It might come in useful someday!

OTOH, I have no idea why/how you can effectively mute someone just because you've got them pinned. I just can't picture it.

Oh, and about that BAB of +17 above? Total brainfart, I need more sleep!

Sorry, SWAT! And thanks, shilsen!

DrSpunj

No problem. And I agree that it's a little weird that if you pin someone the person can't speak, but can apparently pull off a non-verbal spell with the appropriate concentration check.

 

[Caliban]

I would like to agree with you Caliban, as I feel that the salamander should have two grapple checks when constricting, but then I read page 312 of the MM, which says "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

I believe this is the basis of the counter argument - otherwise the tyrannosaurus has three chances to swallow you.

You don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons, but you always get iterative grapple checks. Generally you don't use your natural weapons if grappling.

If the creature has the "improved grab" ability it does it's natural weapon weapon damage on a successful grapple check (with the natural weapon it used to establish the grapple), otherwise it would have to use the "Attack your opponent" option and make an attack with a natural weapon at a -4, but that would still be at it's iterative grapple rate.

It's all there in the grapple rules. Grapple checks are different from melee combat, which is whate the quote you used is referring to.

 

[Gansk]

Just want to make sure

You don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons, but you always get iterative grapple checks. Generally you don't use your natural weapons if grappling.

If the creature has the "improved grab" ability it does it's natural weapon weapon damage on a successful grapple check (with the natural weapon it used to establish the grapple), otherwise it would have to use the "Attack your opponent" option and make an attack with a natural weapon at a -4, but that would still be at it's iterative grapple rate.

It's all there in the grapple rules. Grapple checks are different from melee combat, which is whate the quote you used is referring to.

So the salamander only gets one tail slap in melee, but two chances to damage with the tail while grappling? And the tyrannosaurus gets one bite attack during melee, but three chances to swallow while grappling? And the purple worm gets four chances to swallow?

I'm on your side, but I would like to know if other people are playing it the same way.

 

[Caliban]

So the salamander only gets one tail slap in melee, but two chances to damage with the tail while grappling?

Sure, at the cost of giving up all it's other attacks. Remember that the second grapple check is at a -5.

And the tyrannosaurus gets one bite attack during melee, but three chances to swallow while grappling? And the purple worm gets four chances to swallow?

By the rules, yes. Just remember that they are at successively lower grapple checks each time.

I'm on your side, but I would like to know if other people are playing it the same way.

Remember, in most cases it's bad for a monster that is outnumbered by the PC's to grapple, as it loses it's Dex bonus to AC, can't make AoO's, and is easy sneak attack fodder. Taking a -20 on the grapple check or using swallow whole can get around that, but generally the damage you take for being in the creatures stomach is less than that done by it's natural attacks (there are exceptions).

 

[Saeviomagy]

As for the "Grapples use iterative attacks" thing, read the first paragraph under "If You're Grappling" on page 156 of the 3.5 PHB:

Of course the problem with this is...

"Hi, I'm bob the fighter. I own a ring of telekinesis. I deliberately get into a grapple with my buddy, who's not going to hurt me, and then use my iterative attacks to activate my ring, casting 4 telekinesis spells in a single round, causing plenty of damage to multiple opponents a feat which would be impossible were I not grappling."

Or make up any other such magical item - anything which can cast a spell as many times a day as you wish, and which doesn't need a spell trigger. 4 magic missiles a round anyone?

Or even CAST SPELLS AT YOUR ITERATIVE ATTACK RATE! As long as you can reliably hit a DC 20 concentration check, you can use this tactic to blast your opponents out of the water.

To combat this silliness, I'd suggest you only apply the 'iterative attacks' bit to any of the actions which require a grapple check.

Personally I'd suggest that animals (or other monsters) can make their normal natural attack routine with each attack at -4 while grappling.

OR they can make grapple checks on iterative attacks to cause unarmed damage

 

[Gansk]

Personally I'd suggest that animals (or other monsters) can make their normal natural attack routine with each attack at -4 while grappling.

OR they can make grapple checks on iterative attacks to cause unarmed damage

I think the rules already state it this way, except if a creature has improved grab, then they can substitute lethal damage for their unarmed damage, like a monk.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think the rules already state it this way, except if a creature has improved grab, then they can substitute lethal damage for their unarmed damage, like a monk.

Well, no. The rules currently seem to say that you do your natural attacks via the iterative attack mechanic.

Oh, and also - constrict applies EVERY time the creature wins a grapple, regardless of what caused that grapple.

ie - if you struggle to escape a constricting creature and fail, you take damage. If the creature decides to make a grapple check to move, you take damage. If the creature succeeds at pinning you, you take damage.
etc.

Constrict is nasty.

 

[Greatwyrm]

No problem. And I agree that it's a little weird that if you pin someone the person can't speak, but can apparently pull off a non-verbal spell with the appropriate concentration check.

I can see it. I mean you could clasp your hand over their mouth or clamp down on their throat with your forearm. I don't think "can't speak" should be taken to mean "silent", however.

And if I'm covering your mouth with my hand, that's one less I can use to pin your arms. I've just made it that much easier for you if you happen to have a Silent Magic Missile ready and a good Concentration bonus.

 

[Caliban]

Well, no. The rules currently seem to say that you do your natural attacks via the iterative attack mechanic.

Oh, and also - constrict applies EVERY time the creature wins a grapple, regardless of what caused that grapple.

ie - if you struggle to escape a constricting creature and fail, you take damage. If the creature decides to make a grapple check to move, you take damage. If the creature succeeds at pinning you, you take damage.
etc.

Constrict is nasty.

Not true. It only does the constrict damage when it makes a grapple check, not when you make one. You may lose the grapple check, but you are still the one who made it.