Grappling: Iterative attacks and Pinning

[SWAT]

I thought I had finally understood the grappling rules until I re-read them a few times and questions started popping into my head. Would it have killed them to put a really complex example?

So, say a young adult green dragon (base attack/grapple: +17/+27) is grappling a 14th level human fighter with a +5 Str bonus (base attack/grapple: +15/+20).

Now, a thread I read here this week said that a tyrannosaurus grappling someone with their mouth thanks to improved grab wouldn't get iterative attacks because natural weapons never provde iterative attacks. In the suggested case, however, the dragon is grappling with its whole body, like the human, so it would get iterative attacks, right?

Now, on the dragon's turn, among other things, it can mix and match up to 4 actions, each being either the Attack Your Opponent option, or an option that requires an opposed grapple check. If the dragon simply performs Damage Your Opponent 4 times, then its grapple checks would be at +27/+22/+17/+12 while the fighter's would all be at the base grapple bonus: +20/+20/+20/+20. Is this all correct?

Also, they mention many times that pinning only lasts for 1 round. This means that the opponent you pinned automatically becomes unpinned right before your next turn (unless they already unpinned themselves, of course), right?
Kinda reduces the value of pinning unless you have friends to beat on your pinned adversary...

Thanks!

 

[shilsen]

Now, a thread I read here this week said that a tyrannosaurus grappling someone with their mouth thanks to improved grab wouldn't get iterative attacks because natural weapons never provde iterative attacks. In the suggested case, however, the dragon is grappling with its whole body, like the human, so it would get iterative attacks, right?

Correct.

Now, on the dragon's turn, among other things, it can mix and match up to 4 actions, each being either the Attack Your Opponent option, or an option that requires an opposed grapple check. If the dragon simply performs Damage Your Opponent 4 times, then its grapple checks would be at +27/+22/+17/+12 while the fighter's would all be at the base grapple bonus: +20/+20/+20/+20. Is this all correct?

Correct.

Also, they mention many times that pinning only lasts for 1 round. This means that the opponent you pinned automatically becomes unpinned right before your next turn (unless they already unpinned themselves, of course), right?

Correct.

Kinda reduces the value of pinning unless you have friends to beat on your pinned adversary...

True in many cases. But pinning your opponent has a couple of advantages even in a one-on-one fight. The opponent is going to have to make two successful grapple checks to escape on his turn, not one. Also, against a spellcasting opponent you can prevent him from speaking.

 

[DrSpunj]

So, say a young adult green dragon (base attack/grapple: +17/+27) is grappling a 14th level human fighter with a +5 Str bonus (base attack/grapple: +15/+20).

The Young Adult Green Dragon only has 3 attack actions to use on its turn. It has a BAB of 17, so it gets 3 attacks at +17/+12/+7. With Grapples he'd get +27/+22/+17.

But you're correct in thinking the grappling defender (your 14th human fighter, which you list with a BAB of 15, so there's a minor problem there, too) would get to use his full grapple bonus to resist each of the dragon's grappling actions.

I agree with everything that shilsen said except for his very last word. Pinning the spellcaster prevents him from casting, but I don't know why he couldn't keep speaking.

Hope that helps.

DrSpunj

 

[Caliban]

The Young Adult Green Dragon only has 3 attack actions to use on its turn. It has a BAB of 17, so it gets 3 attacks at +17/+12/+7. With Grapples he'd get +27/+22/+17.

But you're correct in thinking the grappling defender (your 14th human fighter, which you list with a BAB of 15, so there's a minor problem there, too) would get to use his full grapple bonus to resist each of the dragon's grappling actions.

I agree with everything that shilsen said except for his very last word. Pinning the spellcaster prevents him from casting, but I don't know why he couldn't keep speaking.

Hope that helps.

DrSpunj

A BAB of +17 gives 4 attacks, not 3.

 

[Gansk]

No iterative for natural weapons?

Now, a thread I read here this week said that a tyrannosaurus grappling someone with their mouth thanks to improved grab wouldn't get iterative attacks because natural weapons never provde iterative attacks.

Really? I was just struggling with this when running a salamander encounter. I was rolling one grapple check to see if they could constrict with their tail, but afterward I felt that they should have been rolling twice since they have a BAB over +5. Did I do it right after all?

 

[Caliban]

Really? I was just struggling with this when running a salamander encounter. I was rolling one grapple check to see if they could constrict with their tail, but afterward I felt that they should have been rolling twice since they have a BAB over +5. Did I do it right after all?

No, grapple checks are iterative, even if you are using the "attack an opponent" option.

 

[shilsen]

I agree with everything that shilsen said except for his very last word. Pinning the spellcaster prevents him from casting, but I don't know why he couldn't keep speaking.

Because the PHB says so

Check pg. 156 (3.5). Under "If You're Pinning an Opponent", it says that "At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking." The information is repeated on the next page under "If You're Pinned By an Opponent".

 

[Darklone]

No, grapple checks are iterative, even if you are using the "attack an opponent" option.

Sorry, I didn't find the quotes why grapple checks with the whole body should be iterative... I mean, is it explicitely written somewhere? Ok, they have a nice BAB with iterative attacks... the only thing that keeps them from iterative attacks usually are the natural weapons... which are not used while grappling... Well, at least that would give monsters with Improved Grab a reason to grapple at all.

 

[DrSpunj]

Because the PHB says so

Check pg. 156 (3.5). Under "If You're Pinning an Opponent", it says that "At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking." The information is repeated on the next page under "If You're Pinned By an Opponent".

Wow! I gotta remember that. It might come in useful someday!

OTOH, I have no idea why/how you can effectively mute someone just because you've got them pinned. I just can't picture it.

Oh, and about that BAB of +17 above? Total brainfart, I need more sleep!

Sorry, SWAT! And thanks, shilsen!

DrSpunj

 

[Caliban]

Sorry, I didn't find the quotes why grapple checks with the whole body should be iterative... I mean, is it explicitely written somewhere? Ok, they have a nice BAB with iterative attacks... the only thing that keeps them from iterative attacks usually are the natural weapons... which are not used while grappling... Well, at least that would give monsters with Improved Grab a reason to grapple at all.

There is no "whole body" language in the grapple section, so I'm not sure what you are referring to there. In fact, on page 155 of the 3.5 PHB it says "For monsters , grappling can mean trapping you in a toothy maw (the purple worm's favorite tactic) or holding you down so it can claw you to pieces (the dire lions trick)."

As for the "Grapples use iterative attacks" thing, read the first paragraph under "If You're Grappling" on page 156 of the 3.5 PHB:

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.