Great weapon fighter is a "trap"? Forked Thread: I don't optimize.

[firesnakearies]

Besides which, out of every two-hander you could use, the glaive is the best. Polearm Gamble and Heavy Blade Opportunity are sexy!

 

[Cadfan]

1. I have no problem with optimizing or not optimizing, in general.

1a. In 3e, I think everyone basically understands the power curve and how to break it, so I have a problem with people who break it because they're essentially violating an unwritten rule of cooperative social gaming- the rule being, "Given that we know this system is breakable, and that the game is less fun for everyone else if one of us breaks it, we shouldn't break the system."

1b. 4e may hit that point, but it hasn't yet.

1c. I do have a problem with... certain persons on this forum who I won't name for CoC reasons... who take reasonable but minor points about optimization and inflate them into MASSIVE ISSUES, especially when they do so by declaring certain aspects of a character's build to somehow not count.

2. Great weapon fighters are just fine. Its greatsword fighters who have balance problems. For a weapon other than a heavy blade, great weapon is often the way to go. You get higher damage dice, the fact that Con is usually your secondary stat mitigates your lower AC, you have no armor check penalty, you don't have to invest in a secondary weapon, and you can use Reaping Strike as your default attack, thereby increasing your average damage output quite noticeably versus lone targets.

 

[Runestar]

If you have something to say in my face, just say it out loud and not beat about the bush. List those issues out 1 by 1 and I will do my best to answer them.

 

[Zelc]

I was actually looking at making a Fighter for PvP in the Core Coliseum on the official boards, and I noticed how much spike damage a Great Maul can put out. With a Bugbear, the Great Maul does 9 average damage compared with the Bastard Sword's 6.5, and will pretty much 1-shot any level 1 character with Brute Strike.

 

[Goumindong]

#1: AC is better than damage, since I know that the party has a Dwarf Cleric (Leader), Eladrin Ranger (Striker), Eladrin Rogue (Striker) and Eladrin Wizard (Controller), but not a defender in sight (There was a Dwarf Fighter, but the player dropped out). Also, except for myself, the DM and another player who is the Eladrin Rogue, the other three are completely new to D&D and roleplaying. This means that I can't bank on much teamwork and cooperation, simply because it might be new to them and they're learning the rules. Therefore, as a defender I think being "sticky" might be the better choice to better work with the group, to help foster teamwork.

Not in the slightest. In fact, great weapon fighters are usually stickier for the greater part of their career than sword and board fighters.

Why? Because fighters have two methods of keeping enemies close.

1. Abilities

2. Deterrence

For the most part, abilities are about equal. Everyone can take abilities that defend more or less equally with a few exceptions.

Exceptions:
15 dex + sword/board heavy blade fighters with deep feat investments.
Stalwart Guard: Utility Power better with Shield.
Interposing Shield: Utility Power better with Shield.

Why?

Tide of Iron: At-Will Push is very very strong, used correctly you can prevent attacks against friendlies. At-Will Push during an OA is just amazing.

Shield Push: Combat Challenge Push... even better.
Distracting Shield: -2 penalty becomes -4 penalty to their attack if you hit. Pretty useful.

But the second part great weapon fighters clean up. Especially high wisdom great weapon fighters. The last thing you want your DM thinking is "ill just provoke this OA, its not a big deal, eat the damage from the basic attack and go on with what the monster wanted to do"

When you do that against a sword and board it takes a lot of investments to make up for the fact that the maul fighter is going to be walloping 2.5 average damage ahead of you before his significant feat advantage.

If you have a warlord, the great weapon fighter really starts to show his superiority as the warlord grants basic attacks. Now the great weapon fighter averages 2.5 damage/hit more and gets to make more attacks a round, building up each time.

Add in Power Attack, which is a positively awesome feat for a great weapon fighter since his attack bonus with an OA should be very high due to decent wisdom, combat reflexes and maybe Blade Opportunity. Now its 3 average damage a hit in the heroic tier(assuming greatsword now since a maul doesn't qualify for blade op), 2 in the paragon, 4 in the epic.

You don't have a shield and that lets you concentrate further on deterrence, picking up bracer's of mighty striking for another 2/4/6 average damage.

Add in Potent Challenge and it can get even nastier(assuming the sword/board cannot afford PA with all the feats they need). Now all of a sudden an combat challenge in the paragon tier doesn't look like 1d10(bastard sword)+6+3+2= 16.5(at 50% hit rate,8.25 normalized) average it looks like 2d6+6+5+3+1+6+4+2= 34(at 40% hit rate average damage, 13.6 normalized, 14 normalized with no power attack, this will favor PA the more your attack increases, does not factor in hammer rhythm which which puts the average up to 15.6 and 16.5). Which is nearly twice as potent a deterrent as it was for the sword and board fighter. An OA would look like, 16.5 on the sword and board side and 29 on the great weapon side. With averages of 8.25 and 11.6.

Either way, the great weapon fighter is coming way ahead in deterrence. And that is just what you want. Getting beat on is no big deal, you're a fighter, have lots of hit points, have plenty of feats to increase your hit points, increase your healing surge values, and increase your defenses.

There are even synergies with weapons. E.G. a berserker weapon makes you easy to hit in exchange for more damage and attack. A great weapon fighter is likely to have a high con. Which stacks nicely with even low level utility powers like Boundless Endurance or Unstoppable.

Sword and board fighters cannot quickdraw a throwing weapon to participate in warlord ranged attacks without dropping their main weapon. They cannot use a throwing weapon to mark ranged enemies that they cannot make it too without dropping their main weapon either.

And then there is the hidden bonus. Your AC is lower. Your job is to get hit so that everyone else doesn't get hit. You have lots of hit points, a high healing surge value and are pretty durable. A high AC fighter makes enemies want to hit something with a lower AC. A low AC fighter that makes hitting the high AC players even harder with a mark and punishes them harder for disobeying is even more likely to draw attacks rather than let enemies simply take the penalty.

Point #2

Pick the feat: Ritual Caster and then just keep enchanting the weapon to your specifications as you go along. Or have the party Wizard do it.

Its greatsword fighters who have balance problems.

There is nothing wrong with greatsword fighters. They get all the benefits of great weapon fighters in deterrence and all the awesomeness of blade opportunity/heavy blade op. For a meager investment of 13 dex they are at +3 for OAs(blade op, and combat reflexes) and can concentrate on either Wisdom to make those OAs even more potent(hit more, go to pit fighter for even better OA specialization), for an investment of 14 dex they can make OAs with at wills as well, though this is less valuable since they won't be needing sure strike, and can't use tide of iron.

Greatsword fighters also get more use out of Cleric Multi-classing. Take something like an Elf(Elves make amazing fighters with their shifting through difficult terrain and high movement, and elvish re-roll, and this elf great weapon build works really well with pit fighters as well). Start with 12 base dex and as much wisdom as you can after getting your strength right(You can run 16 str, 18 wis, 15 dex after racial bonuses pretty easily, harder to change your str up to 18 though, but 18,15,15 is possible, or 18,16,13 if you don't want Heavy Blade Op until Epic and no Heavy Blade Spec). Pick up combat reflexes, blade opportunity, heavy blade opportunity and pump strength and wisdom.

Multi-class into paragon warpriest. Make up slightly for that shield with the AC bonus. Get Warpriests Challenge which is a SECOND combat challenge/round as an OA that doesn't need to be replenished every round!(which might even be more than one extra since you can OA once/turn, and if the enemy attempts to move via a friendlies ability you can hit him again). Did i mention that we are pumping wisdom because fighters get their wisdom mod added to OA attacks and it stops movement?

You also get some friendly healing, an amazing self heal, and battle pyres, a close burst 5(marks an 11x11 square!) enemy only that does ongoing damage, great single target damage(so long as you hit something), and can be sustained for great single target damage so long as any enemy hasn't yet made its save(oh, and another mark).

Did i mention that you need either to be able to quickdraw your implement to make this valuable and sword/board cannot do that, or a holy avenger in order to get decent use out of the two attacks?

Short Answer:

There is nothing wrong with great weapon fighters

There is nothing wrong with greatsword fighters, not ever in the slightest, not only are their multi-classing/paragon options very very sticky(and probably much better at defending than most fighter paragons), but heavy blades easily have the best feats for fighters(and sticky fighters) and only greatsword fighters of the great weapon fighters get to take advantage of those.

 

[blargney the second]

My minotaur maul fighter is a heck of a lot of fun, and pretty solid to boot. His basic attack does almost as much damage as the rogue's sneak attack.
-blarg

 

[Ginnel]

a Couple of corrections

Did i mention that you need either to be able to quickdraw your implement to make this valuable and sword/board cannot do that, or a holy avenger in order to get decent use out of the two attacks?

for a priest they do not need to wield an implement at all just have it around their neck or wherever they fancy (Page 62 of PHB for reference)

Short Answer:

There is nothing wrong with great weapon fighters

There is nothing wrong with greatsword fighters, not ever in the slightest, not only are their multi-classing/paragon options very very sticky(and probably much better at defending than most fighter paragons), but heavy blades easily have the best feats for fighters(and sticky fighters) and only greatsword fighters of the great weapon fighters get to take advantage of those.

The Glavie is a heavy blade with reach, The Falchion a heavy blade with high crit (Page 218)

P.S. I'm playing a fighter who has chosen the two-handed weapon proficiency but is using Longsword and heavy shield at the moment until he can find a two handed weapon he likes then he'll get quick draw and be able to swap between the two but still have the same total attack bonus (the two hander is most likely going to have +2 proficiency bonus)

 

[bardolph]

If you already have a good sword and board paladin or fighter, a 2H fighter becomes a more attractive choice, since you can mark when you need to, or just go all out damage if the board defender is holding the line.

Strikers are great, but Rogue basic melee attack is weak. 2H fighters have the strongest basic attack in the game. And if you have a tactical warlord in the group, Commander's Strike is simply awesome for an at-will if you have a 2H fighter in the group.

 

[Goumindong]

a Couple of corrections


for a priest they do not need to wield an implement at all just have it around their neck or wherever they fancy (Page 62 of PHB for reference)

Multi-class clerics do not use implements as clerics do, only as implements. They need to be wielded and not just worn. PHB 208.

The Glavie is a heavy blade with reach, The Falchion a heavy blade with high crit (Page 218)

both of them are a damage die down on the Greatsword. The Glaive only has a +2 proficiency. High Crit is not usually worth more than an extra damage die, being worth on average .25 damage(or less, if we assume a 20 does not hit) per tier while the Greatsword does .5 average damage more than the Falchion right off the bat. The Falchion only bests the greatsword in average damage in the Epic Tier when you gain heavy blade specialization. Before then the greatsword is better or equal, though the falchion does benefit from those gloves more than the greatsword, it only comes out ahead by the high crit when using the gloves(their weapon damage becomes equal at 6 average)

 

[Ginnel]

Multi-class clerics do not use implements as clerics do, only as implements. They need to be wielded and not just worn. PHB 208.

Unfortunately the evidence provided by that paragraph is flimsy at best.
lets take page 236 as better evidence then.

"unlike other implements, you only need only to wear a holy symbol for its property or power to function"

the sentance in the paragraph before this.
"Members of other classes gain no benefit from wearing or holding a holy symbol"
now we can either read this as it
means wizards and warlocks don't get to add the +'s to attack from the holy symbol with their spells, however if they multiclassed cleric they would count as a cleric and therefore be able to use the bonuses

or that a multi classed cleric can wield a symbol instead of holding or wearing a symbol, I think this is untrue no where does it mention wielding symbols and if you could a cleric could then wield 2 symbols and wear 1 due to the following sentance
"If you are wearing or holding more than one holy symbol, none of your symbols functions"

both of them are a damage die down on the Greatsword. The Glaive only has a +2 proficiency. High Crit is not usually worth more than an extra damage die, being worth on average .25 damage(or less, if we assume a 20 does not hit) per tier while the Greatsword does .5 average damage more than the Falchion right off the bat. The Falchion only bests the greatsword in average damage in the Epic Tier when you gain heavy blade specialization. Before then the greatsword is better or equal, though the falchion does benefit from those gloves more than the greatsword, it only comes out ahead by the high crit when using the gloves(their weapon damage becomes equal at 6 average)

Yeah but they are both heavy blades and two handed weapons. In your post it looked like you were saying the greatsword is the only twohanded weapon which can take these feats, its great.