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PF2 Greatsword Fighter vs Sword and Shield Fighter (2E Pathfinder)

FrogReaver

Adventurer
I ran some simulations of a Greatsword Fighter using power attack feat and a followup attack and Shield Fighter using double slice feat and the raise a shield action. I played smart with shield blocking. I would block as long as my shield wouldn't break (unless I would be downed otherwise).

My results at level 4

Important stats were 18 str, 16 con, 12 dex.

Gear:
Breastplate
Sturdy Shield
Greatsword +1 and striking
Longsword +1 and striking

Sword and shield wins 12
ties 3 (higher initiative would win)
Greatsword wins 5

Essentially the sword and shield fighter won about 2/3 of the time.

Thoughts?
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Thoughts?

Well I suppose that it depends what role you see your fighter and the "back line" having.

If your role is to keep foes back while your casters and your archers blast the foes to smithereens, go with a defensive build.

If your role is to kill the foes while your back line messes the enemy up/buff you, then go with an offensive build.

Are you saying that the board and shield is better at offence than the greatsword?
 

FrogReaver

Adventurer
Am I missing a link? What were you testing? DPR? Survivability? Tactics choices?
Since it's commonly believed the shield style is bad compared to a two handed weapon I thought one of the best comparisons to counter that belief was to pit 2 fighters with those styles in a deathmatch and since the sword and shield guy won about twice as much, that to me was fairly strong evidence shields do not suck.
 

Istbor

Explorer
Since it's commonly believed the shield style is bad compared to a two handed weapon I thought one of the best comparisons to counter that belief was to pit 2 fighters with those styles in a deathmatch and since the sword and shield guy won about twice as much, that to me was fairly strong evidence shields do not suck.
The large breadth of history would disagree with 'common knowledge' there. Wading into melee without a shield is a movie thing. I mean, unless you weren't expecting to make it out alive, or were in a big formation of other two-handed weapon wielders for a specific purpose.

Man, I really want to look at these classes now.
 

Kaodi

Adventurer
A level 1 fighter with power attack, a greatsword and +9 atk vs AC 18 would have a 50% chance to get a regular hit and do 2d12+4 damage with a 10% chance to do double that. On the second attack, taken at a -10 penalty, they would have a 5% chance to do 1d12+4 damage and a 5% chance to do double that. That would average 17 x .5 plus 34 x .1 or 11.9 damage on the first attack and 10.5 x .05 plus 21 x .05, or 1.575 damage on the second attack. Together that is 13.475 damage per round.

A level 1 fighter with exacting strike, a great pick, and +9 atk vs AC 18 would also have a 50% chance to get a regular hit on the first attack but would do 1d10+4 damage and 10% of the time would do double 1d12+4 damage plus an extra 1d12 damage. That first attack would average 9.5 x .5 plus 27.5 x .1 damage, or 7.5 damage. The second attack would be at a -5 penalty, so would get a regular hit 30% of the time, and a critical hit 5% of the time, so 9.5 x .3 plus 27.5 x .05, or 4.225 damage.

On the third attack things get interesting. 65% of the time you will be making an attack at a -5 penalty and 35% of the time you will attack at a -10 penalty. So you can take the same average damage as the second attack, 4.225 and multiply it by .65, and then you multiply the average for damage at -10 by .35. Or at least I think the average will work out properly that way. In any case the third attack will by 9.5 x .05 plus 27.5 x .05 , or 1.85. And 4.225 x .65 plus 1.85 x .35 comes out to 3.39375 damage. So all told the damage with the greatpick averages 15.11875.

If you use all three of your actions to attack (and your enemy does not have some kind of damage resistance) then the greatpick with exacting strike comes out on top. But... how many of your turns are going to be like versus how many where you get only 2 actions to attack or are facing an enemy with damage resistance? I think in play it certainly means exacting strike is playable, but it is not likely to be superior.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Since it's commonly believed the shield style is bad compared to a two handed weapon I thought one of the best comparisons to counter that belief was to pit 2 fighters with those styles in a deathmatch and since the sword and shield guy won about twice as much, that to me was fairly strong evidence shields do not suck.
The role of a fighter is not to kill another fighter in a 1 vs 1 fight.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Thanks captain obvious
Perhaps my previous post was too curt, and for that I apologize.

People are complaining that the shield fighter is a bad fighter (vs the greatsword fighter). So you need to test it at doing "fighter things". What are those things, what is the fighter's role? Once you have defined that more clearly, then you can build a more relevant test.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Not always, but it certainly sounds to me like something a fighter should be expected to do when the occasion calls for it.
This. There is not a whole lot of difference between a fighter facing down another fighter and their ability to handle an orc warrior. There will be plenty of times where a front line combatant might have to face down another front line combatant in isolation while the back line deals with other problems or because another ally on the front line is containing a priority target.

Monsters in this edition are built to be comparable to a PC of the same level. They generally do not have inflated hit points or defenses although some monsters make trade offs. Fighting a monster does not feel fundamentally different from an NPC statted out like a PC.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Again folks, look at my first post - what is the fighter meant to do primarily - kill the foe, or hold them back? What is the rest of the party doing? Are they helping their fighter/hindering the foe, or are they killing the foe while the fighter holds it back? This should answer the question on what is the better fighter design.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
Since it's commonly believed the shield style is bad compared to a two handed weapon I thought one of the best comparisons to counter that belief was to pit 2 fighters with those styles in a deathmatch and since the sword and shield guy won about twice as much, that to me was fairly strong evidence shields do not suck.
Shocking. Getting hit less results in taking less damage, thus outlasting your 2handed weapon using opponent.
 

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