Green Dragon Tactics against a Deepwood Sniper

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Green Dragon stuff

I suppose the question comes to mind: 'Why are you playing D&D to do this, then?' You wanted to know how a single 10th level character could defeat a monster with a CR of 21, within the boundaries of the system. When you were rebuffed that it wasn't tactically feasible under the rules, you pointed out that it would work due to story requriements.

Incorrect. I said it was literally possibly within the mechanics of the rules. The "story element" is why he's trying in the first place.

If so, bully for you. But if you don't like the cold hard fact that under normal 3E rules, this isn't possible except under unusual circumstances, I'm not sure what to tell you.

I pity the players and DMs that never allow for "unusual circumstances" to occur in their games. How stale those campaigns must be. Its understandable, given the sentiment of several people on this thread. Its interesting that the most outrageous, odds-defying, ingenious occurance that can possibly happen in this scenario to some is "DM hands player dragon on a platter." Just because that is your limitation, don't chide others for aspiring to be more creative.

The rules allow for the dragon to go down. Period. Now its our job to somehow exploit that fact in the context of a cool story. Of course, the cool story will probably be something in the neighborhood of "how to get the hell outta Dodge when the plan fails" but hey, that's what excitement is all about.

If you want the story to override the rules, then by all means do so....but don't chide others for pointing it out to you, after you asked. There are other game systems that better reflect an emphasis on story over rules, and that seem to allow the more cinematic style you're looking for.

If you think the story must override the rules for this to be successful, then you don't understand the rules. Its that simple. This is going to be the Dragonlance equivalent of the attack on the Death Star. Something that must be done to save the good guys but even some people still think the warriors that go out to do battle are nuts or suicidal. Do we have script immunity like Luke Skywalker? No, but its interesting that many instantly assume they do.

If your DM is planning on making the encounter with the CR21 creature a EL 11 encounter, you should have mentioned that at the outset. That would make this a winnable situation, but the Wyrm would either have to be extremely addled, wounded or some other mitigating factor to make this a winnable situation. There are a variety of spells that can completely shut your DWS down, especially at the relatively low level you operate at. Unless the dragon has lost his senses, he won't allow you to manipulate him into making himself a target. And once he locates you, unless you're equipped with level inappropriate items, you are, by and large, dead.

Yes, yes, we're all aware odds are heavily in favor of the dragon. Thank you. That wasn't the point of the question. The point of the question was to figure out the dragon's "exhaust port" as attractive as that sounds.

Does this mean that such a scenario is completely impossible? Of course it isn't. Under the right conditions, it can happen.

Now you're getting it.

But you haven't specified those conditions, you've merely asked very generic ones, forcing the assumption that nothing is out of the ordinary, tactically-speaking.

Because I don't need to tell you the specific conditions. I can handle those. I just want to make sure we have a grasp on what the dragon can do. I'm not concerned with whatever incorrect assumptions anyone here has made.

 

[Derren]

The only chance for you winning is that the DM wants you to win. Strictly by the rules there is no chance of winning except maybe du some extreme min/maxing. And yes, there is the chance that you roll only critical hits and that the dragon rolls only 1s on his saving throw. But this isn't something you can control except by buying loaded dice.
As long your DM doesn't build the encounter so that you can win, there is nothing you can do and nothing we can say to help you.

 

[jasper]

"...Because I don't need to tell you the specific conditions. I can handle those. I just want to make sure we have a grasp on what the dragon can do. I'm not concerned with whatever incorrect assumptions anyone here has made..."

help me. help me Mr. Policeman
MP. "where are you calling from?"
I don't need to tell you the where I am just help me.


What can a dragon do?
Sounds like you asking us NOW to help you cheat. Yup I got all the members of B.A.D.D. to post ideas so I can counter them if the DM think of it.

... incorrect assumptions... GENERALLY come from GOOBERS not give out enough information! Shades of "Captain Kirk, Picard, Janeway, please come down here I have something to show you"


Until will know the following we can't help
1. All possible terrains. Thick woods hobbits can't walk through or is this forest really an orchard with trees in a nice rolls. What about the castle.
2. Your total stats
3. The dragon total stats.
4. How many allies and henchmen the dragon has.
5. How much money do you have to go to the local Magic mart (a new division of Wally mart) to spend.
6. How many allies do you have.
7. What is their level and stats.
8. What is in the dragon's hoard and will he use it.

Remember if you can see the dragon the dragon can see you. Don't worry about blind sight and all that jazz. You stated it was
A deep dark forest out of dragonlance. Hello everyone nixed your idea due to cover both ways.
You brought up a stream to go scuba/ navy seal tactics. It was counter by people reminding you dragons swim.

If I was your Dm, I would let you come up with any idea you want. Then take 20 minutes after you present the whole plan.
Don't like remember you not trying to out tactic me, just the monster. So as Dm if you come up with a simple solution I can counter I would do so even my preplanning stage did not.

If you want help be nice when people do so and say it can't really be done.

As to you 20 years of game play, big fat hairy deal Jon and Odie .
I have a 13 year IMC who is less whiney than you.

 

[Kai Lord]

As to you 20 years of game play, big fat hairy deal Jon and Odie .

I'm glad you mentioned that again. I had to leave for work and couldn't finish addressing the last guy. The comment about me playing for 20 years wasn't a pompous claim of superiority, just a simple indication that a lot of scenarios have a "been there done that" vibe to them, especially since I've been playing this particular character since 1990. In all my years of gaming I've never done or even tried something like what I'm about to do. That alone increases the excitement, regardless of whether it will be successful or not.

Of course, rather than simply reading what I wrote you're the second person now to take that statement and twist it into something you can snub your nose at. Nice.

All I did was think up a cool scenario that's going to be so tough I thought a little "reverse engineering" might be in order so I at least know what is even conceivably possible.

Now my DM and I get to decide whether we want to put all eggs into the "insane luck" basket, make the journey to the forest difficult enough to raise him a couple levels, hook him up with better gear or allies, add in some cinematic twists, what have you. This thread was a simple information gathering exercise, though it was also interesting to learn what kind of baggage a lot of people here have regarding their perceptions of other people's campaigns and intentions.

 

[WizarDru]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Green Dragon stuff

Its interesting that the most outrageous, odds-defying, ingenious occurance that can possibly happen in this scenario to some is "DM hands player dragon on a platter." Just because that is your limitation, don't chide others for aspiring to be more creative.

The rules allow for the dragon to go down. Period. Now its our job to somehow exploit that fact in the context of a cool story. Of course, the cool story will probably be something in the neighborhood of "how to get the hell outta Dodge when the plan fails" but hey, that's what excitement is all about.

Ahhh, illumination at last. Here we come to the crux of it. You're not playing D&D here, you're writing a story, and trying to find a way to make it make sense in a D&D contextual reference. Hence why there is no assumption for the possibility of failure. You and the DM both have decided that your DWS will defeat the dragon, and are now looking for ways to make it happen under the rules. This is where the misunderstanding has been taking place. Got it. Sorry, if I had realized this was all just looking for a justification, it would have been easier to answer your question.

Because I don't need to tell you the specific conditions. I can handle those. I just want to make sure we have a grasp on what the dragon can do. I'm not concerned with whatever incorrect assumptions anyone here has made.

Which completely breaks any 'Star Wars' analogy you might have had. The silver dragon should tell you the green's weakness, and then you go forth. I am confused, though, as to why the entries in the MM and spell listings in the PHB (which is essentially all you need to know) aren't sufficient to understand the dragon's abilities.

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Green Dragon stuff

...you're writing a story, and trying to find a way to make it make sense in a D&D contextual reference. Hence why there is no assumption for the possibility of failure.

Of course, the cool story will probably be something in the neighborhood of "how to get the hell outta Dodge when the plan fails" but hey, that's what excitement is all about.

 

[kenjib]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Green Dragon stuff

Taking the big Green out with a Quiver of Dragon Slaying arrows is mechanically credible, but not so impressive from a storytelling point of view.

Actually, I found the Hobbit to be quite a good read and the slaying of the dragon was fun, exciting, and a really great story. I think using one special arrow is actually more exciting than using a pile of random magic equipment with no history or context just to boost up your powers to the point where you are a super-hero (okay, there's my baggage showing -- too many super powers in D&D for my taste).

A classic motif of old myth is finding the creature's weaknesses and playing off of it to succeed. Fight smart. Find that soft spot in the armor. You've got one shot with that mythical arrow of dragon slaying that you spent a week questing for. Get true strike, do your best. Hold your breath, cross your fingers, draw and release. If you miss, well, deep doody. That sounds like a good story to me.

I was a bit hasty when I said "cheap shot." Sorry about that. It was rude of me. You do need a bit of Deux Ex Machina to pull this off though. A dragon has an a vast and inhuman intelligence. He's not going to get suckered by some standard little ambush trick. You're gonna need some kind of ace up your sleeve to pull it off. Even then it's quite likely to fail, but at least you have a better than 1 in 10,000 chance. Also, I'm curious -- why doesn't the silver dragon help out more? You're playing dragonlance. Get a saddle and tell that sorry dragon to get off of it's butt and help out.

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Green Dragon stuff

Actually, I found the Hobbit to be quite a good read and the slaying of the dragon was fun, exciting, and a really great story. I think using one special arrow is actually more exciting than using a pile of random magic equipment with no history or context just to boost up your powers to the point where you are a super-hero (okay, there's my baggage showing -- too many super powers in D&D for my taste).

A classic motif of old myth is finding the creature's weaknesses and playing off of it to succeed. Fight smart. Find that soft spot in the armor. You've got one shot with that mythical arrow of dragon slaying that you spent a week questing for. Get true strike, do your best. Hold your breath, cross your fingers, draw and release. If you miss, well, deep doody. That sounds like a good story to me.

I was a bit hasty when I said "cheap shot." Sorry about that. It was rude of me. You do need a bit of Deux Ex Machina to pull this off though. A dragon has an a vast and inhuman intelligence. He's not going to get suckered by some standard little ambush trick. You're gonna need some kind of ace up your sleeve to pull it off. Even then it's quite likely to fail, but at least you have a better than 1 in 10,000 chance. Also, I'm curious -- why doesn't the silver dragon help out more? You're playing dragonlance. Get a saddle and tell that sorry dragon to get off of it's butt and help out.

Thanks for the reply. I haven't completely ruled out using a Slaying Arrow, since like everything else, the dragon has to roll a 1 for it to kill him. And The Hobbit was definitely sweet. Bard had a great "Luke Skywalker" moment, which is what I'd love to see happen, but since dice are rarely as forgiving as story writers, I'm trying to think of contingencies to increase the odds and give him more opportunities to make that "shot in a million."

The odds of this being like Star Wars are pretty out there, but I'd definitely settle for Jaws. Remember that? The ending was incredibly exciting. Sure Brody had more than one bullet, but he didn't roll that critical until he was down to his last shot. Totally cool.

As for the Silver Dragon, its Silvara from the novels. She is under a pact to not transform and get directly involved because the evil dragons have stolen the good dragon eggs.

 

[jasper]

KiaLord I bite my thumb.

I not snubbing you. I saying quit your bellyaching when people post counters to your ideas. If you truly want help give us some detailed information.

A. What books are you and dm using.
B. How longer are you going be able to prepare.
B1. You just mention maybe the DM allowing you to go up levels by adventuring in the woods.


So be a player suck up my and others insults and give with the details.

 

[JesterPoet]

I can't help but wonder if this is just an elaborate trolling.

I can't believe anyone would carry on like this... for this long. Especially after the last "I will singlehandedly defeat the dragon that is way more powerful than me" thread that we all suffered through.