Green Dragon Tactics against a Deepwood Sniper
- Thread starter Kai Lord
- Start date
Linthalas Durothil
First Post
Green Dragon stuff
Hi there,
I'm new to these forums but have been on the DnD forums for awhile.
Kai Lord, I can tell you like your character. I do myself. I remember when he was just a wee lil 1st lvl Fighter back in 2e.
Nothing wrong with taking pride in our characters.
My only question, seeing as I play in FR and not Krynn. Is your DM using the Wyrm stats straight from the MM? Or a weaker version? One thing that was neglected on these threads were exactly how strong is this Dragon? Yes it's a Wrym, but that doesn't mean it has to be a stereotypical wyrm.
From your story this Dragon is smart, but perhaps lacks the muscle. Many DM's don't just use the stats from a book for the main villains. Not every human is the same. Maybe this dragon aged so much hiding, and using puppets. Which in itself is quite deadly.
But my point is, it's possible for this Dragon (especially since it's a very story drivven character) doesn't have 40+ AC, or so many HP. In this game one must always keep an open mind.
However I do have to agree with the general consensus here. If the Dragon is straight from the book without a lot of DM assistance, a 10th lvl DWS just can't do it. 2e you could have pulled it off, but 3e... no. Sorry mate.
Hi there,
I'm new to these forums but have been on the DnD forums for awhile.
Kai Lord, I can tell you like your character. I do myself. I remember when he was just a wee lil 1st lvl Fighter back in 2e.
Nothing wrong with taking pride in our characters.
My only question, seeing as I play in FR and not Krynn. Is your DM using the Wyrm stats straight from the MM? Or a weaker version? One thing that was neglected on these threads were exactly how strong is this Dragon? Yes it's a Wrym, but that doesn't mean it has to be a stereotypical wyrm.
From your story this Dragon is smart, but perhaps lacks the muscle. Many DM's don't just use the stats from a book for the main villains. Not every human is the same. Maybe this dragon aged so much hiding, and using puppets. Which in itself is quite deadly.
But my point is, it's possible for this Dragon (especially since it's a very story drivven character) doesn't have 40+ AC, or so many HP. In this game one must always keep an open mind.
However I do have to agree with the general consensus here. If the Dragon is straight from the book without a lot of DM assistance, a 10th lvl DWS just can't do it. 2e you could have pulled it off, but 3e... no. Sorry mate.
Even if this is a non-standard dragon I don´t give you much choice. I don´t think any DM who knows something about dragonlacne will make Cyan Bloodbane weaker than "normal" dragons. Maybe more magical oposed to physical but not weaker.
I would like to know if you play an published adventure or if your DM makes his own adventures and if yes, how much he knows about dragonlance.
If he knows (and uses) the forest you have an other problem. The forest isn´t very friendly to anyone who enters it. Don´t expect to walk freely among it and that you can lay an ambush there.
I would like to know if you play an published adventure or if your DM makes his own adventures and if yes, how much he knows about dragonlance.
If he knows (and uses) the forest you have an other problem. The forest isn´t very friendly to anyone who enters it. Don´t expect to walk freely among it and that you can lay an ambush there.
Kai Lord
Hero
Re: Green Dragon stuff
That, I can't answer. My DM and I have discussed what the upcoming adventure will be about; any tweaking of the dragon's stats will be for him to decide, and he sure won't tell me beforehand. For simplicity's sake, I started the thread assuming the stats would be of a standard Wyrm.
Very well said. Its obvious by some of the snide comments on this thread some people have no concept of "story" in a campaign. Its all about maintaining legitimacy by working your way up the CR tree with a perfectly balanced four man team. I like to strike that balance between great storytelling and earning credibility through the genuine thrill of no-holds barred danger.
Here we disagree. It can be done, albeit with some unbelievably lucky die rolls. But there'll be some "outside the box" way to take the thing out without bending the rules, I'm sure of it. You'd be surprised what kind of ingenious inspirations you can get in this game.
Welcome to the boards.
Linthalas Durothil said:
That, I can't answer. My DM and I have discussed what the upcoming adventure will be about; any tweaking of the dragon's stats will be for him to decide, and he sure won't tell me beforehand. For simplicity's sake, I started the thread assuming the stats would be of a standard Wyrm.
Linthalas Durothil said:
Very well said. Its obvious by some of the snide comments on this thread some people have no concept of "story" in a campaign. Its all about maintaining legitimacy by working your way up the CR tree with a perfectly balanced four man team. I like to strike that balance between great storytelling and earning credibility through the genuine thrill of no-holds barred danger.
Linthalas Durothil said:However I do have to agree with the general consensus here. If the Dragon is straight from the book without a lot of DM assistance, a 10th lvl DWS just can't do it. 2e you could have pulled it off, but 3e... no. Sorry mate.
Here we disagree. It can be done, albeit with some unbelievably lucky die rolls. But there'll be some "outside the box" way to take the thing out without bending the rules, I'm sure of it. You'd be surprised what kind of ingenious inspirations you can get in this game.
Welcome to the boards.
Kai Lord
Hero
Re: Re: Re: Green Dragon stuff
Okay, one more time...
"I like to strike that BALANCE between great storytelling and earning credibility through the genuine thrill of no-holds barred danger."
A 1st level commoner killing the Tarrasque could make a great story, but its statistically impossible for him to do that with his abilities and official starting wealth. Without game mechanics to back it up, no balance.
My 10th level DWS with 49,000 gold worth of gear can take out a Wyrm. Its possible.
I've been playing this game off and on for 20 years. The challenges are part of what keep it to be an endearing hobby. The challenge this time around is intellectual, tactical, and creative, that is, somehow defeating the dragon in a mechanically credible way against the backdrop of a satisfying story.
Taking the big Green out with a Quiver of Dragon Slaying arrows is mechanically credible, but not so impressive from a storytelling point of view. On the flip side, lots of cinematic and dramatic ways to fight the dragon can't be accomplished successfully within the context of the rules. Hence the challenge. I like to push the limits. Sorry if that makes anyone who maintains the status quo uncomfortable....
Xarlen said:
Okay, one more time...
"I like to strike that BALANCE between great storytelling and earning credibility through the genuine thrill of no-holds barred danger."
A 1st level commoner killing the Tarrasque could make a great story, but its statistically impossible for him to do that with his abilities and official starting wealth. Without game mechanics to back it up, no balance.
My 10th level DWS with 49,000 gold worth of gear can take out a Wyrm. Its possible.
I've been playing this game off and on for 20 years. The challenges are part of what keep it to be an endearing hobby. The challenge this time around is intellectual, tactical, and creative, that is, somehow defeating the dragon in a mechanically credible way against the backdrop of a satisfying story.
Taking the big Green out with a Quiver of Dragon Slaying arrows is mechanically credible, but not so impressive from a storytelling point of view. On the flip side, lots of cinematic and dramatic ways to fight the dragon can't be accomplished successfully within the context of the rules. Hence the challenge. I like to push the limits. Sorry if that makes anyone who maintains the status quo uncomfortable....
Re: Re: Re: Green Dragon stuff
Hey too bad you didn't say 1st level wizard's apprentice so you could taste the whole foot, huh? Too those who want D&D to be all about diablo, hey more power too you.
If Kai Lord wants to take his cherished character and gamble everything on his peoples chance at survival, with a modicum of magic, I hope he gets that 1 in a 1000 or so chance.
Lord knows I've seen the dice do crazier things on rare occasion. My smoke dice were almost notorious for letting players get away with the most audacious schemes. For a whole game, I'd roll freakishly streaky. My villians would smack down in a big way, but every time the players needed to catch a break, or dig out their character rolling dice, my smoke dice would let them eeek by. And anytime something would be neat from a story angle even if it would irrelevent or devestating in game play, the dice would choose the story. I'd often find myself saying, you've got a one in a hundred chance to do X, and sure enough, 00 would pop up. Or if they wanted to do something that for what ever reason they could not do, but were hell bent on trying from a character perspective, I might mention, fine, I'll describe it extra sweet if you roll a 20. Mind you all this is done out in the open. (My other special power used to be if I called in a pizza order I'd get free stuff, that hasn't worked lately though).
His Dm must have something in the way of a balancing factor.
Xarlen said:
Hey too bad you didn't say 1st level wizard's apprentice so you could taste the whole foot, huh? Too those who want D&D to be all about diablo, hey more power too you.
If Kai Lord wants to take his cherished character and gamble everything on his peoples chance at survival, with a modicum of magic, I hope he gets that 1 in a 1000 or so chance.
Lord knows I've seen the dice do crazier things on rare occasion. My smoke dice were almost notorious for letting players get away with the most audacious schemes. For a whole game, I'd roll freakishly streaky. My villians would smack down in a big way, but every time the players needed to catch a break, or dig out their character rolling dice, my smoke dice would let them eeek by. And anytime something would be neat from a story angle even if it would irrelevent or devestating in game play, the dice would choose the story. I'd often find myself saying, you've got a one in a hundred chance to do X, and sure enough, 00 would pop up. Or if they wanted to do something that for what ever reason they could not do, but were hell bent on trying from a character perspective, I might mention, fine, I'll describe it extra sweet if you roll a 20. Mind you all this is done out in the open. (My other special power used to be if I called in a pizza order I'd get free stuff, that hasn't worked lately though).
His Dm must have something in the way of a balancing factor.
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WizarDru
Adventurer
Re: Re: Re: Re: Green Dragon stuff
I suppose the question comes to mind: 'Why are you playing D&D to do this, then?' You wanted to know how a single 10th level character could defeat a monster with a CR of 21, within the boundaries of the system. When you were rebuffed that it wasn't tactically feasible under the rules, you pointed out that it would work due to story requriements. If so, bully for you. But if you don't like the cold hard fact that under normal 3E rules, this isn't possible except under unusual circumstances, I'm not sure what to tell you. If you want the story to override the rules, then by all means do so....but don't chide others for pointing it out to you, after you asked. There are other game systems that better reflect an emphasis on story over rules, and that seem to allow the more cinematic style you're looking for.
If your DM is planning on making the encounter with the CR21 creature a EL 11 encounter, you should have mentioned that at the outset. That would make this a winnable situation, but the Wyrm would either have to be extremely addled, wounded or some other mitigating factor to make this a winnable situation. There are a variety of spells that can completely shut your DWS down, especially at the relatively low level you operate at. Unless the dragon has lost his senses, he won't allow you to manipulate him into making himself a target. And once he locates you, unless you're equipped with level inappropriate items, you are, by and large, dead.
Does this mean that such a scenario is completely impossible? Of course it isn't. Under the right conditions, it can happen. But you haven't specified those conditions, you've merely asked very generic ones, forcing the assumption that nothing is out of the ordinary, tactically-speaking. Part of the issue here is that you come off sounding as if you want to have bragging rights for legitimately defeating the dragon, although it also sounds like you're having it handed to you on a platter. Whether you intend it or not, you present the case a battle you've already won, like a puzzle-box that you'll shortly figure out how to open. To players who've fought and lost characters in similar situations, that comes across badly. Worse, it sounds similar to the situation of a middle-school student bragging about killing Tiamat with his 3rd-level fighter, after he found Excalibur. Right or wrong, it reminds folks of extreme cases of silly monty haul-esque games.
I personally see little thrill in defeating a much more powerful enemy by DM fiat, but YMMV. My players and I share equal faith in the rules and our collective abilities, and I hold the dice above reproach, usually. Will I change some factors to make a combat more challenging? If it makes the game more fun, certainly. But the rules allow a shared common reference, and if you fudge them too often, they become meaningless. Recently, my players (6 15th-17th chars) went up against a powerful Black (CR 17 + Sorceror levels). One of my players asked me if I would allow save-or-die spells to work against the black, and I told him 'certainly, and I'll give a golf clap and say, 'well played'.' We both knew full well the odds of such a spell succeeding (and they didn't)....but the faith that it might is a motivational factor for players. No risk means no fun for many players, and the story is meaningless if they can't actually fail.
I'm curious...is the DWS character one you've leveled up from 1st...or was he created out of whole cloth at a higher level, possibly even as he currently is? That might explain your 'I don't care if he dies, it'll be fun' attitude.
A large chunk of the community here has been playing for 20 years or more, without the 'on and off' part, and truthfully, I don't think it's terribly relevant to the discussion. In a discussion about gaming history, yes; but an argument about how to do something in a particular variant of the game that's only 3 years old, I don't think it is. Length of play time has no effect on maturity, either: I've met mature gamers who've only played for a few weeks, and immature ones who've been playing since the '70s.
Kai Lord said:
I suppose the question comes to mind: 'Why are you playing D&D to do this, then?' You wanted to know how a single 10th level character could defeat a monster with a CR of 21, within the boundaries of the system. When you were rebuffed that it wasn't tactically feasible under the rules, you pointed out that it would work due to story requriements. If so, bully for you. But if you don't like the cold hard fact that under normal 3E rules, this isn't possible except under unusual circumstances, I'm not sure what to tell you. If you want the story to override the rules, then by all means do so....but don't chide others for pointing it out to you, after you asked. There are other game systems that better reflect an emphasis on story over rules, and that seem to allow the more cinematic style you're looking for.
If your DM is planning on making the encounter with the CR21 creature a EL 11 encounter, you should have mentioned that at the outset. That would make this a winnable situation, but the Wyrm would either have to be extremely addled, wounded or some other mitigating factor to make this a winnable situation. There are a variety of spells that can completely shut your DWS down, especially at the relatively low level you operate at. Unless the dragon has lost his senses, he won't allow you to manipulate him into making himself a target. And once he locates you, unless you're equipped with level inappropriate items, you are, by and large, dead.
Does this mean that such a scenario is completely impossible? Of course it isn't. Under the right conditions, it can happen. But you haven't specified those conditions, you've merely asked very generic ones, forcing the assumption that nothing is out of the ordinary, tactically-speaking. Part of the issue here is that you come off sounding as if you want to have bragging rights for legitimately defeating the dragon, although it also sounds like you're having it handed to you on a platter. Whether you intend it or not, you present the case a battle you've already won, like a puzzle-box that you'll shortly figure out how to open. To players who've fought and lost characters in similar situations, that comes across badly. Worse, it sounds similar to the situation of a middle-school student bragging about killing Tiamat with his 3rd-level fighter, after he found Excalibur. Right or wrong, it reminds folks of extreme cases of silly monty haul-esque games.
I personally see little thrill in defeating a much more powerful enemy by DM fiat, but YMMV. My players and I share equal faith in the rules and our collective abilities, and I hold the dice above reproach, usually. Will I change some factors to make a combat more challenging? If it makes the game more fun, certainly. But the rules allow a shared common reference, and if you fudge them too often, they become meaningless. Recently, my players (6 15th-17th chars) went up against a powerful Black (CR 17 + Sorceror levels). One of my players asked me if I would allow save-or-die spells to work against the black, and I told him 'certainly, and I'll give a golf clap and say, 'well played'.' We both knew full well the odds of such a spell succeeding (and they didn't)....but the faith that it might is a motivational factor for players. No risk means no fun for many players, and the story is meaningless if they can't actually fail.
I'm curious...is the DWS character one you've leveled up from 1st...or was he created out of whole cloth at a higher level, possibly even as he currently is? That might explain your 'I don't care if he dies, it'll be fun' attitude.
A large chunk of the community here has been playing for 20 years or more, without the 'on and off' part, and truthfully, I don't think it's terribly relevant to the discussion. In a discussion about gaming history, yes; but an argument about how to do something in a particular variant of the game that's only 3 years old, I don't think it is. Length of play time has no effect on maturity, either: I've met mature gamers who've only played for a few weeks, and immature ones who've been playing since the '70s.
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Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
There are two things I still don't understand about this whole set-up:
1) How are you going to get through the forest? Given that this is Cyan Bloodbane etc etc etc, you are going to be fighting for a long time just to get to him.
2) How exactly are you going to lure him outside? All your ideas have so far been based on the fact that you've already done this, and are now ambushing him. If I remember rightly, Cyan is going to know you're coming. He knew the Companions were coming!
I'm interested, because if you can legitimately come up with a way to defeat this, then all credit to you. I just don't see how it can be done.
1) How are you going to get through the forest? Given that this is Cyan Bloodbane etc etc etc, you are going to be fighting for a long time just to get to him.
2) How exactly are you going to lure him outside? All your ideas have so far been based on the fact that you've already done this, and are now ambushing him. If I remember rightly, Cyan is going to know you're coming. He knew the Companions were coming!
I'm interested, because if you can legitimately come up with a way to defeat this, then all credit to you. I just don't see how it can be done.
jasper
Rotten DM
I wasted 5 minutes last night to help you Kai.
I check the stats the MM1 and could not firgure out how you could win except for the following.
The dragon has been watching the Toon Disney and his hero is Goofy because Goofy is a super genius. And the Dm plays him like Goofy.
He gives the Black Arrow from the Hobbit.
And 2 uzi
and small heat seeking friend or foe pocket nuke missle.
Then this morning I see you want to redo a dragon pants um Dragon lame um dragon lance scene.
And a couple extra lame ideas.
If I was your dm since you not using core books, I don't either
I would use some the spells and feats out of Slayers Guide to Dragons.
Plus Just because I hide and rest my tail in the castle does not mean I forgot about my defenses.
The only way you can win at your level is to hire enough elves humans and hobbits to surround you and wait too the dragon gets indegestion and pops.
Would you have your dm email so I can show him how to give you a challenge. Oh by the way Stevil will sell you a True Res insurance policy for 500 gp.
I check the stats the MM1 and could not firgure out how you could win except for the following.
The dragon has been watching the Toon Disney and his hero is Goofy because Goofy is a super genius. And the Dm plays him like Goofy.
He gives the Black Arrow from the Hobbit.
And 2 uzi
and small heat seeking friend or foe pocket nuke missle.
Then this morning I see you want to redo a dragon pants um Dragon lame um dragon lance scene.
And a couple extra lame ideas.
If I was your dm since you not using core books, I don't either
I would use some the spells and feats out of Slayers Guide to Dragons.
Plus Just because I hide and rest my tail in the castle does not mean I forgot about my defenses.
The only way you can win at your level is to hire enough elves humans and hobbits to surround you and wait too the dragon gets indegestion and pops.
Would you have your dm email so I can show him how to give you a challenge. Oh by the way Stevil will sell you a True Res insurance policy for 500 gp.
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