D&D 4E Green Ronin's Pramas blogs on 4e or not 4e

[Darrin Drader]

The most worrying thing to me is Chris's questioning whether "the new rules (will) be good." That smacks of supreme arrogance. Obviously, Chris thinks his team will make good games, or they wouldn't be in the business in the first place. So clearly, if he actually means this, he thinks his guys are better at it than the ones that work at WotC. Frankly, if I was one of the WotC guys, I'd be really insulted.

I have the same question, and based on the stuff I've seen so far, I'm not entirely convinced it will be good. Does that make me arrogant too? Well, probably, but then I'm one of those writers who likes Harlan Ellison more for his rants than for his actual work. I don't think this is a question of whether or not he thinks his guys are better, but more a question of if it ain't broke, why fix it?

As for WotC, it saddens me that the creative types always have to dance for the business types. Besides, if history has taught us anything, once the mission is accomplished - or failed - they'll be letting a lot of their in-house creative talent go because they won't need them anymore.

 

[mxyzplk]

Glut, shmut. Guess who had the first third party 3e product to market? Green Ronin. They were a junky little company no one had heard of at that time, and then Death in Freeport was for sale at Gen Con the same day as 3e. It was great (not perfect, but given the timeframe was better than expected) and both contributed to the success of the 3e launch, and turned Green Ronin from nothing into something.

Shame on Wizards for doing anything that would inhibit people from helping out the 4e launch in the same way, with great related product.

And a bit of shame on Green Ronin - that's exactly how you got started. Now that you're big, you want the little guys shut out more?

The common wisdom about the d20 "glut" is misguided. The d20 logo doesn't mean "crap!" to gamers nowadays in my experience, it just means d20 compatible. And having more content for your system is *good*. Some of it will be bad, and it won't sell, and those companies will pass away. It's like PC games - anyone can write one, which is WHY the PC is the best gaming platform. I think people are blaming the d20 glut on the RPG downturn, when they have the general economy more to blame. Saying that "oh, too many books, people can't tell the good from the bad so they get confused and wander away" is retarded and it's logic that doesn't hold up in any related field. Does that frieghtening sci-fi book variety at Barnes & Noble cause the book industry to tank? No. Having three aisles full of PC games at Frye's doesn't make the PC gaming industry sink. This is disinformation that only feeds the interest of the guy trying to be the monopoly.

 

[JohnSnow]

John Snow: "Supreme arrogance" is a bit strong. WotC has certainly released other products where the rules weren't good. And while it would seem that the amount of resources being put into 4th ed would ensure good rules, things like rationalization of personal prefrence, group-think, and just getting off on the wrong track could lead to so-so rules.

Big companies put out products that flop all the time. WotC could do the same.

[EDITED by me to remove inflammatory language]

You're right it is a bit strong.

However, I would have preferred it if Chris had phrased his concern as "whether the majority of Green Ronin's customers will like the changes being made" rather than questioning the quality of the game itself.

He probably intended the former, but to me it sounded like the latter.

 

[glass]

One bit of confusion based on Chris' post above though: Hasn't WotC said that they'll let Phase 1 folks read the rules before committing the $5,000. In other words, sign the NDA, read the rules, and if they stink we won't hold you to the whole $5,000 thing?

I think they said they'll be able to look through the licence before they shell out, not the rulebooks.


glass.

 

[Darrin Drader]

If Green Ronin were so much better than WotC at giving gamers what they want, True 20 would be outselling Dungeons & Dragons. And it's not.

Sales figures have a lot more to do with marketing than quality. Hasn't American Idol taught you anything?

 

[RodneyThompson]

Maybe...but when Pramas said "The jury's still out on whether the rules will be good," the impression that I get is:

"I wouldn't trust the likes of Baker, Bonner, Collins, Cordell, Heinsoo, Mearls, Noonan, Perkins, Radney-MacFarland, Schubert, Sims, Sernett, Thompson, or Wyatt to work on one of my products."

So Chris thinks his freelancers are better than these guys? Or perhaps he believes that it's the guiding hand of Green Ronin's editorial team that makes for good products. Because some of those "so-so" products you mention involved design work by guys that also do work for Green Ronin...like Robert Schwalb.

Honestly, I don't think Chris is saying that at all. He just doesn't know what's being done, and as the owner of his business I think he's right to be cautious. I don't think he's saying anything about not trusting any of us to work on his products...because many of us have! I've written on more than half a dozen Green Ronin projects, and I know others have as well (I know offhand that Sernett wrote the Advanced Bestiary). If he didn't trust the likes of "us" to work on his projects, I have seen no indication of it. That's not counting guys that freelance for both Wizards and Green Ronin, like GR's own Rob Schwalb, Ari Marmell, and so forth.

I think you're being unfair to Chris. He's not being negative, I don't think, just cautious.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Maybe...but when Pramas said "The jury's still out on whether the rules will be good," the impression that I get is:

"I wouldn't trust the likes of Baker, Bonner, Collins, Cordell, Heinsoo, Mearls, Noonan, Perkins, Radney-MacFarland, Schubert, Sims, Sernett, Thompson, or Wyatt to work on one of my products."

Right there is how flame wars start. Your taking this way out of context and putting words in someone's mouth. I wonder myself if the rules would be any good and if I want to support 4e. It has nothing to do with the designers or arrogance or any other such nonsense. Maybe 4e is just a game I don't like. Chris has always spoken highly of Wizards and their design team and I see nothing different here. He's being upfront and practical. Not a big deal at all.

 

[JohnSnow]

[ORIGINAL DELETED]

Fair enough. If you're not upset Rodney, I won't get annoyed on your behalf.

His questioning whether 4E would be "any good" just rubbed me the wrong way as a customer who likes his products.

I guess the heated rhetoric of an election year may have led me to read more into it than Chris intended.

Well, that and the fact that I like Green Ronin's stuff, darnit, and I'd hate to be deprived of it when I switch to 4th Edition.

 

[BryonD]

If Green Ronin were so much better than WotC at giving gamers what they want, True 20 would be outselling Dungeons & Dragons. And it's not.

Are you actually claiming that the quality of all RPG products out there can be calculated by simply assigning a percentage of D&D's quality equal to its percent of D&D's sales?
Or does it only apply to Green Ronin? And if so, why?

For the record, IMNSHO, 3.5 is the best RPG going. Big points for WotC there. Period.


If I was able to list in discrete order the best 3X supplements you would count down past quite a few Green Ronin titles (as the biggest name amongst a few others) before you got to the first WotC one. You'd still be in "great" for quite a few WotCs. But Green Ronin would beat them solidly. Also, as great as some WotC stuff was, there'd be quite a few under the line of "What happened to this train wreck?" I don't recall any off hand from GR that would go there.

Again, in my solitary and not remotely humble opinion. Solitary, but far from alone.

 

[Green Knight]

I forget which company is doing it, but there's one who's taking donations for the $5,000 fee. I don't see why Green Ronin can't do the same. If you want to see Green Ronin go 4E, then put your money where you mouth is. Hell, you wouldn't have to put all that much. I'm sure Green Ronin has MORE then enough fans that they could take $5 from individual fans and get the $5,000 easy. I know I'd be willing to drop $5 into the till if it meant convincing Green Ronin to check out 4E sooner rather then later.