D&D 4E Green Ronin's Pramas blogs on 4e or not 4e

[Wulf Ratbane]

I totally read "any good" as "to my taste and the taste of our fans."

 

[Darrin Drader]

I think it may be an open question as to how popular the 4E rules will be. On the other hand, I have faith in the designers at WotC to do a good job. I've seen nothing to suggest they're doing anything "wrong" other than to shed legacy things I didn't think were particularly essential to the game in the first place.

In my mind it isn't a question of whether or not they're getting rid of legacy rules, but whether they're getting rid of the right legacy rules. 3-18 ability scores can go the way of the dino, considering that they're meaningless and it's the modifier that actually impacts the game. That's one area where you create something so you can convert it and then that converted number actually affects the other aspects of the game. Why bother starting with the 3 - 18, other than that it allows you to create characters in the traditional way? Also, how about changing it so that attacks of opportunity don't balance nearly every special attack? (Actually they might be doing this, and I would consider that an excellent change).

 

[Rechan]

What's "quality" though?

If you like them, they're "good," and if you don't, they're "bad?" I don't think it's that simple.

I think it may be an open question as to how popular the 4E rules will be. On the other hand, I have faith in the designers at WotC to do a good job. I've seen nothing to suggest they're doing anything "wrong" other than to shed legacy things I didn't think were particularly essential to the game in the first place.

If I may try and re-phrase what you're saying:

You don't believe that the 4e rules will be mechanically unsound. You've seen nothing that looks like it's broken or wonky, and you don't see how WotC can be doubted when putting together a system that works.

This is different, to you, then a system that does what you want it to do; what type of game style that suits you. The function of the system (the "rules are any good") is seperate from the way it allows you to play or run the way you feel is "How D&D should be played".

 

[Uzzy]

Fair enough. Let's move on.

I personally don't see a need to lay down the $5,000 for the rules, especially with Green Ronin's other product lines currently in development. Isn't Freeport rather rules light anyway? Add to that True 20 and the forthcoming ASOIAF book (which I'm going rather looking forward too. Time it for release with 'A Dance of Dragons' please!) and to me, it seems like a poor investment, especially if they have a packed production calendar at the moment. Still, I don't work in the industry!

His other points are fair, except the 6th about the 'glut'. I don't see a glut of products as a bad thing. I'm sure customers are wise enough to go for well made products when they see them, besides, some of those garage production teams turn out to be real gems who can contribute a great deal to the hobby. Cutting them out is a disappointing move.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I totally read "any good" as "to my taste and the taste of our fans."

Isn't that what it always means? I mean a billion people can love broccoli, but it still sucks.

 

[JohnSnow]

I totally read "any good" as "to my taste and the taste of our fans."

Too much time on 4E forums has led me to read a comment of "the jury's still out" on whether the rules will be "good," as "I don't trust these guys not to release a steaming pile of excrement."

As I said above, I should have read it the way you did.

If I may try and re-phrase what you're saying:

You don't believe that the 4e rules will be mechanically unsound. You've seen nothing that looks like it's broken or wonky, and you don't see how WotC can be doubted when putting together a system that works.

This is different, to you, then a system that does what you want it to do; what type of game style that suits you. The function of the system (the "rules are any good") is seperate from the way it allows you to play or run the way you feel is "How D&D should be played".

That's pretty much it exactly. There's a difference between "a system that's mechanically sound, playable and entertaining" and "my opinion of how D&D should be played." That's because the latter is just opinion. Everyone has an opinion about "how D&D should be played," and you can bet the farm that everyone has a slightly different opinion. The 4E designers may have a substantially different opinion than you, but that doesn't make them "wrong," or the game they're making "bad." It just makes it "not what you'd prefer," and, in extreme enough cases, "not a game you'd enjoy."

For example, Monte Cook's preferred style of D&D is a lot more "high-magic" than mine. I was cringing about the notion of bars with "no detections" signs and a bunch of the other world-building suggestions in the 3e PHB. That doesn't mean I thought the game was "bad." Similarly, I disagree with people who come from the "wizards über alles" mentality of gaming, but I certainly think they're entitled to their opinion.

Hopefully, that clears up my position.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Sales figures have a lot more to do with marketing than quality.

If that were true, sufficient marketing could guarantee the success of any product. For example every big Hollywood movie would be a massive hit, and indie breakthroughs would be impossible.

And 4e would be a surefire hit too.

 

[Gundark]

Too much time on 4E forums has led me to read a comment of "the jury's still out" on whether the rules will be "good," as "I don't trust these guys not to release a steaming pile of excrement."

Ugh...I'm with you John. I keep telling myself to stay away from the 4e forums, it's just gonna make you mad. But it's like crack......help me.

 

[JohnSnow]

Fair enough. Let's move on.

I personally don't see a need to lay down the $5,000 for the rules, especially with Green Ronin's other product lines currently in development. Isn't Freeport rather rules light anyway? Add to that True 20 and the forthcoming ASOIAF book (which I'm going rather looking forward too. Time it for release with 'A Dance of Dragons' please!) and to me, it seems like a poor investment, especially if they have a packed production calendar at the moment. Still, I don't work in the industry!

His other points are fair, except the 6th about the 'glut'. I don't see a glut of products as a bad thing. I'm sure customers are wise enough to go for well made products when they see them, besides, some of those garage production teams turn out to be real gems who can contribute a great deal to the hobby. Cutting them out is a disappointing move.

Noooo. At the rate Martin's going, if they wait for that, we'll never see it!

I honestly loved some of Green Ronin's 3e stuff, but here's where I come from. If 4E is able to reign in the bookkeeping bloat of 3e, it'll be really hard for me to go back to a 3e-based game.

After just making a couple characters for Star Wars Saga Edition, going back to either D&D 3e or d20 Modern was downright painful. While I'm more than happy to play a SWSE game, pondering running a game in the latter two systems gave me apoplexy.

Not to mention that after playing Iron Heroes, I just couldn't go back to regular D&D. Life's just not interesting enough for every class I enjoy.

So anything they make for 3e will be of questionable use as far as I'm concerned.

It's the third party publishers' fault really. Without games like True 20 and Iron Heroes, some of us would never have realized how unwieldy and in need of an upgrade 3e was. And some times, you just want to play the game with "D&D" on the cover.

 

[Darrin Drader]

If that were true, sufficient marketing could guarantee the success of any product. For example every big Hollywood movie would be a massive hit, and indie breakthroughs would be impossible.

Hollywood movies are not surefire hits because they're in competition with other big budget Hollywood movies. I have yet to hear about a time when an indie film was up against a big budget movie and won. They aren't even shown in the same theaters. Granted, every once in a while a very well made Indie movie gains enough recognition, it sometimes gains popularity and gets widespread distribution, but that's pretty rare. Remember Memento? Great movie. I never saw that come to the local theater. Did you? What about Pi? There's a long list of great Indie movies that just never attained the same audience as even the most vapid waste of film Hollywood pumped out, like Alien Vs. Predator: Requiem.

And 4e would be a surefire hit too.

It is likely to be. The question is whether it will be a hit compared to 3E. Even if it bombs by Hasbro's standards, it will most likely far outsell anything that any of the smaller publishers release, unless they accompany their release with a massive marketing campaign that rivals WotC's. This is obviously unlikely since someone as big as Green Ronin considers $5K to be anything other than a trivial sum of money.