D&D General Greyhawk and "Low Magic" : Why Low Magic is in the Eyes of Beholder

[Ancalagon]

I think we are disagreeing on what we consider rare. 1 out of 100,000 doesn't match how the setting describes spellcasters in full on magic schools.

But even so, There are TONS of mages all over the planet. Kislev is run by a witch and the witch control everything behind the scenes. Each elven nation has dozens of wizards. Lizardmen are run by super magic frogs.

The thing is WH RPG is mostly Tier 1. You tend to die before you meet any friendly casters. But if youreached the equivalent of mid Tier 2, you would know at least1 spellcaster.



Well that's my point. The average adventurer dies before they become important enough to ask a wizard for a magic favor.

But the wizards matter. Warhammer is a grimdark war setting afterall. The mages are walking talking war machines. They matter a lot.

But how rare are they compared to FR? Quite rare I think. You can't step outside without tripping on a wizard...

 

[Ancalagon]

If anyone cares, I've done the math on continual light/flame.... Continual light/flame - how common are they?

quite common is the answer.

 

[Cadence]

If anyone cares, I've done the math on continual light/flame.... Continual light/flame - how common are they?

quite common is the answer.

Wasn't making magic lamps to sell what they did in one of the classes in "Name of the Wind"?

 

[Ancalagon]

Wasn't making magic lamps to sell what they did in one of the classes in "Name of the Wind"?

Yup! And other minor magical items too.

A major factor in calculations is durability.

 

[Coroc]

Most forecasts project population growth to stall out between 10-11 billion people in the back half of the 21st century. It's certainly something to be aware of, but I don't think we're in for some Malthusian devastation ONLY because of population growth. (I think we're in for it based on other environmental factors.)

Deriving from the known data e.g. about food production it is highly unlikely we reach those 10-11 billion ever. Unfortunately, you and I, and probably everyone on this forum, will very likely yet see catastrophic plagues, hunger, diseases and the following wars and refugee movements which well might kick in before these 10 billion are reached in our lifetimes.
The environment also plays a role, though differently than many people think. The per head ecological footprint of a first world inhabitant might be big compared to a third world inhabitant, but the numbers make that more than even again. It does not matter if your ecological footprint is 10x of someone else if there is 1 of you and 1000 of him.

 

[Minigiant]

But how rare are they compared to FR? Quite rare I think. You can't step outside without tripping on a wizard...

Well if Forgotten Realms is the baseline then EVERY setting that isn't Magipunk is low.

 

[Helldritch]

1) So, you're saying that a weapon that hits more often and deals more damage vs monsters that have less HP is less powerful than a weapon that hits less often, deals less damage against monsters that have more HP?

2) Meh, that's what torches were for. And, those +2 or more monsters tended to show up conveniently when the PC's had weapons that could hit them. The overwhelming majority of monsters though didn't need magic weapons to be hit.

3) Think about what you are saying. You're saying that it was common for PC's to have so many magic items that they had back up magic items. Yeah, I lost my +3 sword, just hang on and let me yank out my +2 sword out of my pack.

4) And, the "fireball save" thing is so overblown. First, the character has to fail the save - I'm a paladin, I don't fail too many saves. Second, then each item has to make saves. Steel vs fire needs something like a 7 or better on a d20. The notion that I'm going to lose all my items is pretty far fetched.

5) But, they aren't rare at all. There's high level NPC's all over the setting. They only look rare if you insist on only using the boxed sets. Once you start looking in the modules and Dragon, there's high level NPC's all over the place.

Hey, the 3e demographics rules were meant for Greyhawk. That was the default setting after all.

1)As strange as it seems. Yes. Because that same weapon would deal zero damage against a monster that would require a +2 weapon to be hit. The lowly magic sword without bonuses (ex: a vicious weapon) can damage every single monster in the MM or any monsters simply because it is magical. In 1ed, there were different power levels in magical items.

2) Torches were almighty in your games. Attacking with a torch could extinguish it. And lighting one could be very hard if you were attack while trying to light it. I don't remember the exact rule, but it was hard enough to be something to be tried in desperate circumstances. Also, the famous weapons were not always there when needed. And a lot of monsters that could be hit by +2 weapons only were already immune to fire.

3) Yes, minor magic items were relatively common. Again, there were levels of power in magic items. Just like there are qualities in golf balls that justify that some can be acquired for a mere 5$ for a dozen and others that are 5$ for one. It because that magic was not always powerful enough that you had so many magic items. Some were barely better than mundane items, others were total power incarnated.

4) the firball thing was a real thing. Of course the higher you were, the less likely it would be to happen. But when it happened, it was devastating, especially for characters that could not have back ups. I have seen this scenario happening enough times to tell you that it was a real concern.

5) What do you think I am using? 1ed box set and source book from the beginning. I already explained that when FR got out, a power creep started to appear across all settings. Although I am a fan of From the Ashes, I am not and will not use that setting to explain the original feel of Greyhawk.

 

[Remathilis]

And I think when people say they want Greyhawk, do they really mean they want 1st edition AD&D? Or are the two so intertwined that it is impossible to separate one from the other?

Sorta? A lot of the "low magic" talk seems to hinge on the AD&D notions of levels and magic, and more than a few suggestions want to emulate the perception that AD&D had less magic at low levels (paladin and ranger got spells at name level, no cantrips) but others seem to gleefully ignore other parts of AD&D (I don't see people advocating that dwarves, halflings and half-orcs should not be able to use magic, or that druids and monks should fight to gain higher levels as core elements of Greyhawk's magical ecology, ymmv).

 

[Minigiant]

Sorta? A lot of the "low magic" talk seems to hinge on the AD&D notions of levels and magic, and more than a few suggestions want to emulate the perception that AD&D had less magic at low levels (paladin and ranger got spells at name level, no cantrips) but others seem to gleefully ignore other parts of AD&D (I don't see people advocating that dwarves, halflings and half-orcs should not be able to use magic, or that druids and monks should fight to gain higher levels as core elements of Greyhawk's magical ecology, ymmv).

And I think when people say they want Greyhawk, do they really mean they want 1st edition AD&D? Or are the two so intertwined that it is impossible to separate one from the other?

I agree. I feel that a lot of people who dream of low magic or Greyhawk just want to expand the first 5 levels of D&D over 10 or 20 levels and not wanted things like racial classes, name levels, strongholds, followers, epic NPCs)

It is kinda like the Total War community right now. Total War started with Historical war game series. However Creative Assembly has added Warhammer, 3Kingdoms, and Troy to do magical and mythical war games. Many of the original Historicalfans want a return to Historical war but if you listen to them closely you will realize they really don't want to play Historical war. They want the diversity and tactics of fantasy war but with humans only, no heroes, and no magic. They want squishy elves but as humans and strong orcs but humans.

 

[Aldarc]

Sorta? A lot of the "low magic" talk seems to hinge on the AD&D notions of levels and magic, and more than a few suggestions want to emulate the perception that AD&D had less magic at low levels (paladin and ranger got spells at name level, no cantrips) but others seem to gleefully ignore other parts of AD&D (I don't see people advocating that dwarves, halflings and half-orcs should not be able to use magic, or that druids and monks should fight to gain higher levels as core elements of Greyhawk's magical ecology, ymmv).

This is one reason why I have suggested that maybe other OSR and OSR-inspired games would likely be better suited for the purposes of cultivating the desired Greyhawk experience than 5e D&D.