D&D General Greyhawk and "Low Magic" : Why Low Magic is in the Eyes of Beholder

[Aldarc]

I'm not sure if I would call Warhammer "low magic." It's "low(er) magical accessibility" but it seems like a relatively high magic setting overall. Mike Mearls's Iron Heroes system is more low-magic. The specllaster class, the Arcanist, is optional and the rest are non-casters.

@Helldritch, if the relative frequency of low-level NPCs determines whether a setting is low magic or not then Eberron is just as "low magic" as Greyhawk, if not more so. And we speak of Eberron as "wide magic," it's still relatively higher than the norm of the fantasy genre. This is largely because D&D has mostly been varying degrees of high magic in the same way as sorting your blue colored shirts from lightest to darkest. At the end of the day, your blue shirts are still blue.

 

[Coroc]

.....or Life Damsel. You're better off commiting heresy and praying to Papa Nurgle.

Lol, Papa Nurgle sorry for the lol the name sounds awfully funny (aka like Papa Smurf) I do know nothing about Warhammer but is Papa Nurgle some kind of Voodoo Doctor?

What is the heresy you commit, I mean, whom do you pray to normally in Warhammer?

And the life Damsel what does she look like?

Please give me some insight, I am dying of curiosity although it is a bit OT.

 

[Cadence]

@Helldritch, if the relative frequency of low-level NPCs determines whether a setting is low magic or not then Eberron is just as "low magic" as Greyhawk, if not more so. And we speak of Eberron as "wide magic," it's still relatively higher than the norm of the fantasy genre. This is largely because D&D has mostly been varying degrees of high magic in the same way as sorting your blue colored shirts from lightest to darkest. At the end of the day, your blue shirts are still blue.

Is Greyhawk in someways the opposite of Eberron? If so, would Greyhawk be "narrow magic"? Do we need two axes like alignment ;-)

 

[Aldarc]

Eberron is the opposite of a lot of settings in so far as the setting takes the radical presumption that its inhabitants aren't idiots about the socio-economic advantages that even low-level magic would confer on individuals and societies.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

From my perspective (and mine only, I am sure many people would disagree with this), I would prefer to get rid of cantrips as a starting point in terms of magic. Removing them immediately makes casters more dependent on spells.

If I really had my druthers, I'd go Vancian after that, and casters would have to determine their spell load out ahead of time. Removing versatility lowers effective power level (and maybe keep it for the sorcerer with additional restrictions and the warlock).

I don't think my approach would be very popular!

The E6-E8 sounds interesting, and I would love to play that, but it doesn't sound specifically like GH ... to me.

I agree that very drastic changes would need to be made, and it's not quite as simple as removing cantrips. Many 5e cantrips where 1st level spells in 1st edition. You want to remove Light from the game altogether?

You could limit the caster to ability score bonus cantrips per day, combined with Vancian, but I suspect it would be easier to just use 1st edition rules.

One of the features of Vancian in 1st edition is that a certain number of spell slots are expected to be wasted, so high level Magic Users got a lot more spell slots per day than 5e wizards do.

And I think when people say they want Greyhawk, do they really mean they want 1st edition AD&D? Or are the two so intertwined that it is impossible to separate one from the other?

 

[Minigiant]

Lol, Papa Nurgle sorry for the lol the name sounds awfully funny (aka like Papa Smurf) I do know nothing about Warhammer but is Papa Nurgle some kind of Voodoo Doctor?

Nurgle is the Chaos god of Disease, Decay,and Stagnation. He is nicknamed Papa or Grandfather because he is the nicest of the chaos gods. He will keep the devoted from dying and heal your wounds... by infecting you with 10 super diseases that makes you into a near unkillable boated mass of poxy horror.

What is the heresy you commit, I mean, whom do you pray to normally in Warhammer?

Nurgle is a Chaos god. Paying to him brings ruination to the world.

And the life Damsel what does she look like?

Grail Damsels look like Disney Princesses. They are probably the only peasant women who aren't deformed.

Life Damsel cast healing and plant magic. Beast Damsel cast animal and beast magic.

They are female Bretonnians who are gifted with magic. Upon puberty, the Fay Enchantress "totally does not force them" to join her, never to be seen again unless an army or paladin needs magic users. If you are noble or rich, you can flee the country before she shows up.
Don't ask what happens to boys that show magically gifts in Bretonnia.

 

[Voadam]

Greyhawk has many casters, but the vast majority of them are below level 9. The high level casters are rare and far between. If you compare Waterdeep in its 1ed inception and Greyhawk in its 1ed inception. You'll see that Waterdeep, as a comparable city, has over 10 named wizards over level 12, with one that's level 27+ (depending on the level of the highest player) to a meager 3 named ones in Greyhawk and Tenser does not even live in the city proper.... Only one 9th level cleric in Greyhawk and 9 in Waterdeep.

What are you using for sources here?

There is a whole 1e Waterdeep sourcebook that goes pretty in depth on NPCs but there was nothing comparable for 1e Greyhawk.

The 2e City of Greyhawk lists 14 named and statted mages from levels 12 to 23 in its chapter on mages and priests. And that does not include Philidor the Blue Wizard (level 25) a new resident of the city statted in From the Ashes.

 

[Helldritch]

@Helldritch, if the relative frequency of low-level NPCs determines whether a setting is low magic or not then Eberron is just as "low magic" as Greyhawk, if not more so. And we speak of Eberron as "wide magic," it's still relatively higher than the norm of the fantasy genre. This is largely because D&D has mostly been varying degrees of high magic in the same way as sorting your blue colored shirts from lightest to darkest. At the end of the day, your blue shirts are still blue.

Eberron is far from low magic. You have a setting that literally created artificial life after all. But Eberron is still less crazy than the FR in terms of high level NPCs. @minigant was right about the retirement rate of NPCs in Greyhawk. A lot of them retires early and for many different reasons.

In 1ed there was what we called the 9th level syndrome. From 9th level up to around 12th, you were too strong for the normal monsters but not strong enough to tackle the next kind of monster power on a regular basis. Many groups were dying in and around these levels. And many groups simply retired/stopped around these levels for this exact reason. With the departure of GG and a new way to DM (it was less adversarial and more story building, a revolution at the time) many new monsters were introduced which eased that period and 2ed got rid of it entirely.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

What are you using for sources here?

There is a whole 1e Waterdeep sourcebook that goes pretty in depth on NPCs but there was nothing comparable for 1e Greyhawk.

The 2e City of Greyhawk lists 14 named and statted mages from levels 12 to 23 in its chapter on mages and priests. And that does not include Philidor the Blue Wizard (level 25) a new resident of the city statted in From the Ashes.

One of the best sources if you're looking at 1e Greyhawk is Gygax.

In Dragon 37, he discussed the forthcoming publication of the City of Greyhawk in '81 or '82 along with the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk (it's almost comical reading it now).

Notably, he described some of the most powerful figures in all of the Flanaess:
Bigby (MU 18)
Mordenkainen (MU 20) (arguably the most powerful when he disappeared)
Robilar (F 19)
Tenser (MU 19)
Erac's Cousin (MU 16)

Re: the "muscular neutral" issue; Mordenkainen is described as having disappeared assisting an evil associate.

We also, generally, know that the cut-off between PC and quasi-deity is about 20th level. Dragon 71 (quasi-deities are more powerful than PCs, class ability of quasi-deities tops out at 20; compare prior lists of personages that are most powerful ending at 20... which may explain Mordenkainen's disappearance).

So while later materials begin to sprinkle in super-powered PCs, generally PCs in the original conception of Greyhawk become rulers of the realm between the levels of 10 - 15 (source: Rulers of Greyhawk, Box Set), and quasi-deities by level 20.


Of course, all of this is based on the scant information provided in a few published materials and some columns in Dragon Magazine, some of which contradict each other.

 

[Aldarc]

Eberron is far from low magic. You have a setting that literally created artificial life after all. But Eberron is still less crazy than the FR in terms of high level NPCs. @minigant was right about the retirement rate of NPCs in Greyhawk. A lot of them retires early and for many different reasons.

In 1ed there was what we called the 9th level syndrome. From 9th level up to around 12th, you were too strong for the normal monsters but not strong enough to tackle the next kind of monster power on a regular basis. Many groups were dying in and around these levels. And many groups simply retired/stopped around these levels for this exact reason. With the departure of GG and a new way to DM (it was less adversarial and more story building, a revolution at the time) many new monsters were introduced which eased that period and 2ed got rid of it entirely.

And that's the point... If you are defining low magic settings based upon the prevalence of high level or 10+ level NPCs then Eberron would qualify as low magic, as there were honestly not many named characters that were 10+ level in the setting, though the 5e conversion IMHO betrays this principle. What makes the setting "wide magic" relates to the socio-economic cooperation of low level mages who are not even to the PCs' level.