D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Micah Sweet]

It's pretty surprising we haven't seen more for the Radiant Citadel worlds on DM Guild after that initial push.

Not really that surprising. Radiant Citadel wasn't the mega-hit WotC feels is necessary for setting expansion, and folks on the Guild clearly feel the same way. Add on to that the idea that independent content creators need to themselves be very excited about the subject to create more material for it. Lots if people feel that way about classic settings (enough to make content anyway). Radiant Citadel mega-fans? Maybe not so much.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I have named this conundrum the Planescape Dilemma.

When Ravnica came out, fans complained it would kill any chance of Planescape because they were both urban fantasy settings.
Then Radiant Citadel came out and fans complained it would kill any chance of Planescape because they were both planar metropolises.
Then Planescape was announced and people complained it would be "ruined" like the changes to Ravenloft, Spelljammer and Dragonlance.
And when it finally came out and it was very faithful to the original setting (with a few changes to factions, even most of those explained in context) people complained it wasn't giving any new information then they already had in the 2e box set.

The goa posts shifted constantly to make sure they could justify not buying it and bemoaning how manhandled the setting was. The end goal was always to justify their hate.

I think Planescape worked out ok in the end, even though I was against a 5e version of it from the beginning. I continue to be shocked they managed to do a good job with it.

 

[Maxperson]

So what we are saying is that there are going to be some very, very unhappy greynards?

 

[Maxperson]

I think for the majority of new players, it won't and doesn't matter. I think it's Wizards trying to maintain that nostalgic hook for the vocal online base and ride that fence a bit longer.

I expect the Principality of Nostalgia to appear on the map below the great kingdom.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The entire history as presented in 1980, sure it is, it's only 32 pages.

Sure, but I said Entire History, not Initial History. More was written after 1980

 

[Faolyn]

An updated Greyhawk has no charm. It's just Alt FR.

I'll admit I don't know much about Greyhawk, but there's a joke that goes something like, in Greyhawk, at 10th level, you're building your own kingdom. In the Realms, at 10th level, you're doing fetch quests for Elminster. So if this hypothetical/upcoming Greyhawk book spent time discussing kingdom management, diplomacy and warfare with other kingdoms, gaining followers, and things like that, that would help give the setting a distinct feeling. Or if not kingdom management, then something that emphasizes how the PCs are becoming important movers and shakers in the world as they rise in level.

Likewise, Greyhawk is supposed to be lower magic than the Realms are. If the adventure they produced for it is primarily non-magical in nature, meaning things like warfare or courtly intrigue or murder mysteries rather than plane-hopping or evil curses or gods causing endless night, and care is taken to ensure that casters can't instantly solve every problem through magic, that would also ensure that Greyhawk is distinct.

Edit: And I can't believe that I forgot the spaceship. If Greyhawk really leaned into that and had the spaceship actually affect the setting in weird ways, that would also make it distinct. Heck, it could be an excuse to allow any species from any supplement, saying that they're mutations caused by the spaceship's radiation.

 

[CleverNickName]

I'll admit I don't know much about Greyhawk, but there's a joke that goes something like, in Greyhawk, at 10th level, you're building your own kingdom. In the Realms, at 10th level, you're doing fetch quests for Elminster.

This was the vibe of Mystara, too. By the time your character reached 10th level, you were probably headed out to Norwold to start your own dominion and build your own stronghold. CM1: Test of the Warlords was the tutorial adventure for kingdoms and armies, much like The Keep on the Borderlands was the intro for dungeon crawls, and The Isle of Dread was the intro adventure for wilderness adventures and hexcrawls.

I wish strongholds and dominions were more prominent in later editions of D&D. Unfortunately, rules for them end up just getting stapled on in a splatbook or cobbled together by a third party, if they're given any thought at all. I don't want D&D to forget her wargaming roots.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It currently doesn't.
And there is no guarantee WOTC will update it.

That is 90% off the problem.

Greyhawk is freaking OLD.
To match 5th edition's mechanics, assumptions, and content, Greyhawk needs an update.

And there is no guarantee WOTC will update it.
A not-updated Greyhawk is a poor education material.
You would be forcing new DMs to do something with the knowledge to do it.

And here is the Catch-22

An updated Greyhawk has no charm. It's just Alt FR.

Spelljammer didn't match 5e until it was written for 5e. Planescape didn't match 5e until it was written for 5e. Forgotten Realms didn't match 5e until it was written for 5e.

Greyhawk currently doesn't match 5e. It is being written for 5e in the core 5e DMG... Sure, there is no absolute proof or Word of God that it will be updated, but there is so much precedent that it will get updates that it seems ludicrous to me to expect it wouldn't be.

You are free to believe that such an update will make it nigh-identical to Forgotten Realms, just as you are free to believe such an update would make it nigh-identical to Equestria, but you lack proof of that. And many people have said it does have differences. Since it is happening either way, and it isn't going to change now, I'd rather wait and see how they choose to differentiate it than declare with utter confidence that they cannot possibly both accommodate a few minor changes and make it different than FR.

 

[Faolyn]

This was the vibe of Mystara, too. By the time your character reached 10th level, you were probably headed out to Norwold to start your own dominion and build your own stronghold. CM1: Test of the Warlords was the tutorial adventure for kingdoms and armies, much like The Keep on the Borderlands was the intro for dungeon crawls, and The Isle of Dread was the intro adventure for wilderness adventures and hexcrawls.

Speaking of Mystara, there's something else I've been wanting from D&D for a long time--Immortal rules. Forget Epic Rules, where you're just the same old characters but you're killing tarresques in one round. I want rules for achieving at least demigodhood.

 

[CleverNickName]

Speaking of Mystara, there's something else I've been wanting from D&D for a long time--Immortal rules. Forget Epic Rules, where you're just the same old characters but you're killing tarresques in one round. I want rules for achieving at least demigodhood.

Personally, I never could get into the Immortals stuff but I understand the appeal. To me, it felt like a mashup of D&D and Marvel Comics. Maybe not my jam, but I can see why others might like it.