D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Hussar]

Again I'm not saying that a sanitized redundant Greyhawk is a bad setting.

I'm saying putting it in the DMG isn't ideal and is being don't to bait old fans and get Greyhawk out the way.

I want a Greyhawk book
Putting Greyhawk in the DMG almost guarantees that there never will be a Greyhawk stay alone book. And it means that the version in the DMG will be either barely fleshed out and too different for new DMs OR morphed into looking like a smaller Forgotten Realms which loses most of its uniqueness. Because it's only getting a chapter in a guidebook.

Fair enough. It was never, ever going to happen, but, fair enough. Ten years and we got one half sized Forgotten Realms book.

 

[Scott Christian]

The 1e DMG (which included the saving throw and combat tables) seems very strongly aimed just for DMs.

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The 2e DMG is similar sounding (but note that combat, for example, is in the PHB):
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Moldvay Basic disagrees on the separation:
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Were all the rules in the DMG? It's not how I remember. I am looking at the Basic Set right now, and it is all together.

Pretty much all of this. Plus the whole goalkeeper/striker analogy. Because it’s not quite the right one. The better analogy for how DnD is presented is Manager/Player.

I’d love it if it was presented as goal keeper/striker.

Again, not to belabor anything, but I really don't see the level of disfunction you see - especially between these 19080 DMs that brow-beat their players. But none of that matters, because my claim is about consistency, and how consistency affects the mood and tone of the game. Which is quite possibly the most underrated and avoided subject in D&D.

 

[Cadence]

Were all the rules in the DMG? It's not how I remember. I am looking at the Basic Set right now, and it is all together.

In 1e all the to hit and saving throw tables were in the DMG and not PHB. In 2e they were in the PHB. In Basic there was only the one book.

 

[Scott Christian]

In 1e all the to hit and saving throw tables were in the DMG and not PHB. In 2e they were in the PHB. In Basic there was only the one book.

Thank you for the clarification. I guess my friends and I just read all the books. Thanks again, that certainly puts things in perspective.

 

[Remathilis]

If you want what I think the mini Gazetteer is going to resemble, don't look to the 83 folio, look to the 2000 D&D Gazetteer that came out as the primer to the LGG. It's about 32 pages with a poster map and hits the highlights a DM needs.

 

[Hussar]

Thank you for the clarification. I guess my friends and I just read all the books. Thanks again, that certainly puts things in perspective.

To be fair, my groups were like yours. We rotated DMing, and it wasn't until many years later that I met groups where you were expected to have only one DM. So, sure, we all knew the rules.

But, having experience MANY conversations on these boards about how I was completely wrong for doing that, and how the players must not be allowed to see how the sausage is made, I'm pretty sure that this has impacted a LOT of how D&D is presented to groups.

 

[Scott Christian]

To be fair, my groups were like yours. We rotated DMing, and it wasn't until many years later that I met groups where you were expected to have only one DM. So, sure, we all knew the rules.

But, having experience MANY conversations on these boards about how I was completely wrong for doing that, and how the players must not be allowed to see how the sausage is made, I'm pretty sure that this has impacted a LOT of how D&D is presented to groups.

Fair enough. Your experience is as valid as mine. Thank you for taking the time to explain it.

 

[Cadence]

To be fair, my groups were like yours. We rotated DMing, and it wasn't until many years later that I met groups where you were expected to have only one DM. So, sure, we all knew the rules.

But, having experience MANY conversations on these boards about how I was completely wrong for doing that, and how the players must not be allowed to see how the sausage is made, I'm pretty sure that this has impacted a LOT of how D&D is presented to groups.

We all rotated too...

I was noticing how the relative sizes of the PHB and DMG completely changed between 1e and 2e with most of the sausage shifting from the DMG to the PHB.

Given how (relatively) few active players started during 1e, you'd think that at some point that keeping the rules secret would have died.

 

[Remathilis]

Greyhawk is more gonzo than Forgotten Reams from what I've seen of FR in 5e. Had not familiarity with FR from prior editions, so I'm sure I missing a lot. But the mashup of genres and weirdness in just the adventures keyed to GH in the '83 box set might be overly gonzo for many modern tastes.

Perception rarely matches reality. Greyhawk is mythologized as basically being D&D before a lot of options got added meaning it kept to the perceived basics. Realms is viewed as all the option toggles on, where drow rangers who aren't That Guy meet dinosaur people. Now both perceptions are wildly incorrect (as said, GH can be gonzo and FR is fairly traditional at it's core) but there are people who try to force this division, usually to beatify old school style play (or the illusion of it) while vilifying the excesses of new play.

Personally, I think GH is a better fit for the default sample setting because so much of D&D proper nouns come from it and it's far less fully detailed than Faerun.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Greyhawk is more gonzo than Forgotten Reams from what I've seen of FR in 5e.

This has more to do with changing fashions in D&D than the settings themselves. 1st edition was all youthful flights of fancy, 2nd edition was when D&D felt it had to grow up and be serious and grounded.