D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Faolyn]

Baseline assumptions like... what? Tieflings, Dragonborn and Goliaths? We have show repeatedly that Greyhawk is compatible with those ideas. Sure, they might need a single sentence "Goliaths live with Giants", but do we really need to explicitly state that Sorcerers are in Greyhawk? Sorcerers have been in Greyhawk since 2000.

Warlocks? They were also in 3.5, so since 200X.

"We" are a handful of people who are talking on a smallish forum. The majority of gamers aren't privy to this particular thread and started with 5e, not 3e or 3.5. And those long-time fans of the setting that are going to buy this book aren't on this thread to see our headcanons of how they exist or are viewed by the populace.

Goliaths live with giants? Cool--but see, I wouldn't assume that, because I have no reason to assume that giants all live together. I normally assume goliaths are their own people who may be vaguely related to giants but don't have any particular reason to live with them. After all, elves are clearly related to humans, because they can interbreed, but they're rarely shown as living together. So if I were to buy this book and there's one line, "goliaths live with giants," my reaction would be "Why? That's dumb," not "Oh, I guess that makes sense."

Tieflings come from wherever the heck Iuz is from? Except, don't the 5.5 tieflings have the option of demon, devil, and yugoloth heritage? Iuz is half-demon, right? So does that mean devil and yugoloth tieflings come from somewhere else? Or are we pretending they're all demon-blooded, just different types?

Good Orcs? Since the 80's

Well, no. The books may say that there are good (and neutral) orcs, but as the idiom goes, show, don't tell and there's been precious few attempts to show many good or neutral orcs in any of the older settings--something that is (hopefully) going to change in upcoming books.

Yet, this is a death knell showcasing that the choice of Greyhawk is completely unsuitable?

Unsuitable for a chapter in the DMG on how to build your own world, perhaps. But we already went over this.

Besides, Greyhawk does need some updating. It have some elements that can and should be expanded to turn it into something other than bog-standard fantasy. It has a crashed spaceship! Greyhawk could really lean into that--imagine if some clever dwarfs and gnomes got their hands on some of the tech in there, and figured out how to replicate that tech and access the ship's databanks? Imagine the effects that (science fiction, not real) radiation from that ship will have on the world around it. Having a medieval setting where there's also strange technology and mutants would turn Greyhawk from "same old, same old" to "very cool."

(Many years ago, I read a novel called Jack Faust, a retelling of Faust, only Mephistopheles gave Faust modern knowledge. Much of the novel, as I recall, was exploring how how Europe was changing, both for good and for ill, with this incredible gush of information.)

 

[Faolyn]

To me, these all seem like questions for the players to answer as part of the process of building their PCs.

Yup. And their answers will very likely alter the world.

Plus, we all know that there are players who will have a hard time coming up with these answers on their own and/or want to make sure their answer lines up with canon.

 

[Faolyn]

Because those aren't choices the PC makes in the world?

They can be.

Group worldbuilding is a thing. IIRC, it's the only form of worldbuilding in games like DungeonWorld and similar games.
It should be more important in D&D, so we don't have threads like this where people say that too much worldbuilding is a chore for DMs.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Did what I like replace what you liked (as VRG did), or did it add more material without invalidating yours? Heck, Barovia was alone in the mists for many years before any other domains popped up, so I don't see how my preferences impinge on yours the way that VRG impinged on mine.

I've made the, "add, don't replace" argument many times here, and no one has engaged it. I can only assume that you don't have a counterargument to it.

Mostly that is because this is a thread on Greyhawk in the new DMG, not rehashing your issues with Van Richtens. Again.

 

[Chaosmancer]

"We" are a handful of people who are talking on a smallish forum. The majority of gamers aren't privy to this particular thread and started with 5e, not 3e or 3.5. And those long-time fans of the setting that are going to buy this book aren't on this thread to see our headcanons of how they exist or are viewed by the populace.

Of course they aren't. But if a handful of random gamers on the internet can come up with an explanation that doesn't destroy the setting, including gamers like myself who have never played in the setting, then why should I believe that game designers who have played it, have researched it, and potentially have a deep love for it, are incapable of doing so?

IF you want to make the argument "It is possible WoTC could screw this up"... well you are correct. IT is also possible a new disaster strikes the global market and the bookd doesn't get published at all, or that WoTC does an amazing job that everyone loves and praises for being a work of genius. All of our crystal balls are showing the same smoke, despite what we may say.

Goliaths live with giants? Cool--but see, I wouldn't assume that, because I have no reason to assume that giants all live together. I normally assume goliaths are their own people who may be vaguely related to giants but don't have any particular reason to live with them. After all, elves are clearly related to humans, because they can interbreed, but they're rarely shown as living together. So if I were to buy this book and there's one line, "goliaths live with giants," my reaction would be "Why? That's dumb," not "Oh, I guess that makes sense."

Have you read the PHB entry on Goliaths? Here is the version from the playtest.

Towering over most folk, Goliaths are distant descendants of giants. Each Goliath bears the blessings of the first giants—blessings that manifest in various supernatural boons, including the ability to quickly grow and temporarily approach the height of the Goliaths’ gigantic kin. Goliaths have physical characteristics that are reminiscent of the giants in their family lines. For example, some Goliaths look like stone giants, while others resemble fire giants. Whatever giants they count as kin, Goliaths have forged their own path in the multiverse— unencumbered by the internecine conflicts that have ravaged giant-kind for ages—and seek heights above those reached by their ancestors

Now, this does state that Goliaths go their own way, but it also makes it clear giants and goliaths are kin. They bear the blessings of the first giants (the giant gods) and they have giants in their family lines.

Now, when I go look up "giant" in Greyhawk wikis...
Giants are found throughout the Flanaess, though the vast majority of giant populations are concentrated in and near the Yatil-Hellfurnaces and Corusk-Rakers mountain chains. A Giant's environment generally depends on which race or subrace it belongs to.

And that is it for the majority of them. Though Canonfire goes into more detail, and ALSO points out that Goliaths were added to Greyhawk in 3.5. So, if the setting rarely decided to go beyond "Frost, Fire, Storm, Cloud and Hill giants live that direction" then it isn't hard to also add "Goliath" to that list, because they've already mashed and mixed the giants up, so one more to the mix doesn't change anything. I am giving them EXACTLY as much detail as the other giants got previously.

Tieflings come from wherever the heck Iuz is from? Except, don't the 5.5 tieflings have the option of demon, devil, and yugoloth heritage? Iuz is half-demon, right? So does that mean devil and yugoloth tieflings come from somewhere else? Or are we pretending they're all demon-blooded, just different types?

Or the Horned Society, the ones who worshiped Devils? So, you have Iuz's Evil Kingdom of Demon worshipers for Demon-blooded Tieflings, the Horned Society Devil worshipers for Devil-blooded Tielflings... and gosh it is so hard to figure out how Societies that worship devils and demons might end up yugoloths, the evil mercenaries that play both sides and have no allegiance, added to the mix. I mean, we all know for a fact that if you summon and work with Devils you would never never summon and work with the mercenaries devils use to fight with them, right?

And again, who is this long-time fan, needing a lesson in basic world-building, who cannot accept that people touched by the Lower PLanes can come from this area of the map where people worship and make deals with the lower planes, and is ruled by a half-demon?

Well, no. The books may say that there are good (and neutral) orcs, but as the idiom goes, show, don't tell and there's been precious few attempts to show many good or neutral orcs in any of the older settings--something that is (hopefully) going to change in upcoming books.

We are talking about the world building. It is all tell. You can't "show" in world-building. So this doesn't matter. They said it before, they can say it again.

Unsuitable for a chapter in the DMG on how to build your own world, perhaps. But we already went over this.

Besides, Greyhawk does need some updating. It have some elements that can and should be expanded to turn it into something other than bog-standard fantasy. It has a crashed spaceship! Greyhawk could really lean into that--imagine if some clever dwarfs and gnomes got their hands on some of the tech in there, and figured out how to replicate that tech and access the ship's databanks? Imagine the effects that (science fiction, not real) radiation from that ship will have on the world around it. Having a medieval setting where there's also strange technology and mutants would turn Greyhawk from "same old, same old" to "very cool."

(Many years ago, I read a novel called Jack Faust, a retelling of Faust, only Mephistopheles gave Faust modern knowledge. Much of the novel, as I recall, was exploring how how Europe was changing, both for good and for ill, with this incredible gush of information.)

And that is entirely possible to do. As mentioned, you don't exactly need to sit down, hold someone's hand and explain "so, in the 80's, we did things differently, so this is what it used to say, then in 2000 we did this, and now, we are changing it again, okay? And we are changing it to this" Especially when the person has never played or read any old Greyhawk material.

They can update it trivially as part of the lesson in world-building. It can be done. It isn't some sisyphean task that WotC is doomed to fail. Most of the changes aren't even actually changes, and are only being proposed to make pendantic fans of the 80's who hated what was done in the 2000's happy. ANd they aren't going to be happy regardless.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Of course they aren't. But if a handful of random gamers on the internet can come up with an explanation that doesn't destroy the setting, including gamers like myself who have never played in the setting, then why should I believe that game designers who have played it, have researched it, and potentially have a deep love for it, are incapable of doing so

You are answering your own point. There is no reason for the professional designers to do it when anyone can.

There are other things that they can better spend time on - things that are more difficult for non-professionals, such as drawing maps, or creating religions.

 

[Faolyn]

Of course they aren't. But if a handful of random gamers on the internet can come up with an explanation that doesn't destroy the setting, including gamers like myself who have never played in the setting, then why should I believe that game designers who have played it, have researched it, and potentially have a deep love for it, are incapable of doing so?

I answered this. It's not going to be written for game designers who have played, researched, etc. It's going to be written for newbies who want to know how their characters will fit into the world.

Have you read the PHB entry on Goliaths? Here is the version from the playtest.

Towering over most folk, Goliaths are distant descendants of giants. Each Goliath bears the blessings of the first giants—blessings that manifest in various supernatural boons, including the ability to quickly grow and temporarily approach the height of the Goliaths’ gigantic kin. Goliaths have physical characteristics that are reminiscent of the giants in their family lines. For example, some Goliaths look like stone giants, while others resemble fire giants. Whatever giants they count as kin, Goliaths have forged their own path in the multiverse— unencumbered by the internecine conflicts that have ravaged giant-kind for ages—and seek heights above those reached by their ancestors

Now, this does state that Goliaths go their own way, but it also makes it clear giants and goliaths are kin. They bear the blessings of the first giants (the giant gods) and they have giants in their family lines.

Did you actually read what I wrote? I said that sure, they're related to giants, but I would have no reason to assume that they live with them, like you suggested. And indeed, this section you quoted in fact supports my idea by strongly suggesting that they don't live with them, or even in the same territories as them.

Now, when I go look up "giant" in Greyhawk wikis...
Giants are found throughout the Flanaess, though the vast majority of giant populations are concentrated in and near the Yatil-Hellfurnaces and Corusk-Rakers mountain chains. A Giant's environment generally depends on which race or subrace it belongs to.

Why should a newbie player have to look up a wiki in order to play the game?

Or the Horned Society, the ones who worshiped Devils? So, you have Iuz's Evil Kingdom of Demon worshipers for Demon-blooded Tieflings, the Horned Society Devil worshipers for Devil-blooded Tielflings... and gosh it is so hard to figure out how Societies that worship devils and demons might end up yugoloths, the evil mercenaries that play both sides and have no allegiance, added to the mix. I mean, we all know for a fact that if you summon and work with Devils you would never never summon and work with the mercenaries devils use to fight with them, right?

And again, who is this long-time fan, needing a lesson in basic world-building, who cannot accept that people touched by the Lower PLanes can come from this area of the map where people worship and make deals with the lower planes, and is ruled by a half-demon?

And again, we're not talking about only long-time fans here.

1. We're talking about people who are new to the setting.
2. We're talking about people who are new to D&D.
3. We're talking about people who are new to gaming entirely and don't realize they can just make stuff up that's not directly mentioned in the lore.
4. We're talking about people who like having things spelled out out of fear of "getting it wrong"
5. We're talking about people who are such rules-lawyers they need to know where devil-tieflings are from.
6. We're talking about people who want to see what the setting says so they can decide if they like it or not before adopting it.

I have met or spoken to people that fit into all the above categories. I, in fact, fall into the sixth category. I'd want to know what the books say on goliaths, dragonborn, and tieflings and then judge where those explanations are on the dumb-to-cool scale.

We are talking about the world building. It is all tell. You can't "show" in world-building. So this doesn't matter. They said it before, they can say it again.

You're kidding, right? Worldbuilding is all about the show.

This is literally when you place the orcs down. Here's where you place Orc Society 1 and say it's warlike or comprised of raiders and why they are like that--because "they're warlike raiders because they are orcs" doesn't cut it anymore. Here's where you place Orc Society 2 and say it's generally peaceful and how they express it. Here's where you place Orc society 3 and say they're all depraved demon-worshipers and how they became so. Here is where you decide what the three societies think of each other. Because here is where the PCs will be drawing their PCs from.

And that is entirely possible to do. As mentioned, you don't exactly need to sit down, hold someone's hand and explain "so, in the 80's, we did things differently, so this is what it used to say, then in 2000 we did this, and now, we are changing it again, okay? And we are changing it to this" Especially when the person has never played or read any old Greyhawk material.

They can update it trivially as part of the lesson in world-building. It can be done. It isn't some sisyphean task that WotC is doomed to fail. Most of the changes aren't even actually changes, and are only being proposed to make pendantic fans of the 80's who hated what was done in the 2000's happy. ANd they aren't going to be happy regardless.

Who said anything about holding hands?

Or wait, I guess we are talking about holding hands, because this hypothetical chapter is about how to worldbuild--it's literally there to teach people how to do a new thing. I mean, when the chapter on character generation includes a sample character being built, do you poo-pooh that because it's hand-holding?

Because guess what? It's just like I said--some people need to have their hand held.

Sure, WotC can use Greyhawk as an example for how to do worldbuilding--but that will be a disservice to the chapter on worldbuilding (for reasons I have already discussed) and to the setting itself (because it should have a book dedicated to it).

 

[Chaosmancer]

You are answering your own point. There is no reason for the professional designers to do it when anyone can.

There are other things that they can better spend time on - things that are more difficult for non-professionals, such as drawing maps, or creating religions.

Sure, but if the people predicting doom are correct, if the professional designers don't handle it, the entire chapter will be rendered useless, people will throw aside greyhawk as an unsaveable mess, ect ect ect.

So, again, it is either not actually important, so not a reason the chapter will fail, or it is vitally important and easy to do. And I am once more wondering why I should predict the chapter will be an utter failure purely because the designers decided to choose Greyhawk as the example. It seems a prediction rooted in everything going to worst possible way, all at once. Which seems unreasonable.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Sure, but if the people predicting doom are correct, if the professional designers don't handle it, the entire chapter will be rendered useless, people will throw aside greyhawk as an unsaveable mess, ect ect ect.

Some people have already decided it is doom, and aren't going to let inconvenient things like facts get in the way of their complaining. There is no way you can make these people happy, the only thing you can do is ignore them.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I answered this. It's not going to be written for game designers who have played, researched, etc. It's going to be written for newbies who want to know how their characters will fit into the world.

That isn't an answer at all. Do you think explaining things to newbies is better done by someone ignorant? Of course it isn't being written FOR the game designers it is being written BY the game designers. And we have no reason to assume that those game designers are incapable of writing this chapter.

Did you actually read what I wrote? I said that sure, they're related to giants, but I would have no reason to assume that they live with them, like you suggested. And indeed, this section you quoted in fact supports my idea by strongly suggesting that they don't live with them, or even in the same territories as them.

Why should a newbie player have to look up a wiki in order to play the game?

Why would a newbie think that Goliaths living with Giants isn't true if the setting says it is true? Why would a newbie who has NEVER read a single piece of lore about Greyhawk think that Goliaths don't already exist and are integrated into the setting? You keep arguing both sides, it will fail because people experienced with the setting will demand explanations, those explanations will fail because people who aren't familiar with the setting won't know why they are needed. But you could tell a newbie that Greyhawk was formed when the Rainbow unicorn puked up the world, and they aren't going to have any reason to question that. As long as the explanation works, they won't care. They are new to the setting.

And again, we're not talking about only long-time fans here.

1. We're talking about people who are new to the setting.
2. We're talking about people who are new to D&D.
3. We're talking about people who are new to gaming entirely and don't realize they can just make stuff up that's not directly mentioned in the lore.
4. We're talking about people who like having things spelled out out of fear of "getting it wrong"
5. We're talking about people who are such rules-lawyers they need to know where devil-tieflings are from.
6. We're talking about people who want to see what the setting says so they can decide if they like it or not before adopting it.

I have met or spoken to people that fit into all the above categories. I, in fact, fall into the sixth category. I'd want to know what the books say on goliaths, dragonborn, and tieflings and then judge where those explanations are on the dumb-to-cool scale.

Do you need help building worlds? Category 6 is utterly useless in my mind, because this chapter isn't about whether or not you decide to adopt Greyhawk. That is like saying we need a category 7 for Fashion Designers looking for inspiration, that isn't the point of the chapter, so whether or not it meets that goal is immaterial.

So, #1 will be fine. Anything put into the chapter is new to them and they can explore the new setting just fine. #2 is functionally identical to #1. #3 should never touch this chapter. IF you are completely new to gaming and TTRPGs you should not be starting with the chapter on how to build your own world. That would be like enrolling someone with a learner's permit into a Nascar race, why would you do that?! #4 is not the goal the chapter. The goal of the chapter is to teach world-building, not allay the fears of someone who is worried about getting 5e Greyhawk "wrong". And since 5e Greyhawk is going to be different than 3.5 Greyhawk anyways, that person shouldn't be terribly surprised at changes. #5 won't care what the explanation is, just that there is one. SO just saying "they come from the Horned Society" is perfectly fine.

And you know what is incredibly noticeable? In your entire category of people you are talking about, you never once mention the people the chapter is ACTUALLY FOR.

You know who matters for this chapter? It isn't the rules lawyers, the long-term fans, the greenhorns who don't know what a d20 is. This chapter is for people who want to world-build, and are looking for advice and guidance. That's it. Those are the people who matter for this chapter. No one else does. If someone wants to pull out their Greyhawk Folio from 1983 and shake it at the DMG screaming that back in the day The scarlett Brotherhood was run by this guy, and how dare they change it to that woman!... who cares? That's not the point of the chapter. It isn't an encyclopedia on Greyhawk. It is a chapter on how to world-build, using Greyhawk as an example.

You're kidding, right? Worldbuilding is all about the show.

This is literally when you place the orcs down. Here's where you place Orc Society 1 and say it's warlike or comprised of raiders and why they are like that--because "they're warlike raiders because they are orcs" doesn't cut it anymore. Here's where you place Orc Society 2 and say it's generally peaceful and how they express it. Here's where you place Orc society 3 and say they're all depraved demon-worshipers and how they became so. Here is where you decide what the three societies think of each other. Because here is where the PCs will be drawing their PCs from.

So, when you tell people where the orcs are and what they are like? You are literally talking about telling. Showing would be having the PCs meet a demon-worshipping orc and interacting with them. Pointing to a map and just saying that's where they live and this is how they behave is literally telling. It is an info dump.

Who said anything about holding hands?

Or wait, I guess we are talking about holding hands, because this hypothetical chapter is about how to worldbuild--it's literally there to teach people how to do a new thing. I mean, when the chapter on character generation includes a sample character being built, do you poo-pooh that because it's hand-holding?

Because guess what? It's just like I said--some people need to have their hand held.

Sure, WotC can use Greyhawk as an example for how to do worldbuilding--but that will be a disservice to the chapter on worldbuilding (for reasons I have already discussed) and to the setting itself (because it should have a book dedicated to it).

To compare this to a sample character, your worries and accusations read to me like demanding that the sample character of Bruenor Battlehammer in 5e needs to explain why his stats and abilities are different from his 3.5 version, then declaring that "because this is him at a different point of his life" is a horrible explanation, and that instead of using Bruenor as an example character, the example character would be far more effective if it was someone entirely new with no history or baggage, because rules-lawyers are going to point out that Bruenor used to have a different character sheet and this is a retcon.

Your concerns don't make sense. You can teach people how to world-build using Greyhawk. It can be done. It is not impossible, it isn't even difficult. They could even choose to use some of the updates as part of the example process, explaining how the thing didn't exist before, but we can add it here, and show how to connect it. Something by the way, that you can't do with a new setting, and something that demonstrates felxibility and a willingness to change the setting, to prevent DMs from getting locked into "but I never had X in my world before" and rejecting it outright. And if they choose to do that with Goliath and dragonborn, but decide they don't need to do it for Tielflings... the chapter still works as intended. It isn't meant to be a chapter explaining Greyhawk, they are actually doing that in the PHB. The PHB is going to cover details on Greyhawk, and might even take a moment to blurb about Tieflings.

All you have demonstrated, is that people obsessed with the details of old greyhawk may not be happy with new greyhawk. And I could have told you that back in 2020. But appeasing people determined to be unhappy is so far down the list of concerns, that no one actually cares about it.