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D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

Chaosmancer

Legend
It's not me thinking WOTC are incapable.

It's a mindset. WOTC doesn't want to tell DMs what to do and offers a little advice on DMing to this day.

And therefore they won't offer DMs advice in a chapter they are explicitly writing to offer DMs advice, that they have stated is for giving DMs advice?

Since no one answered my question..

The sole advice that WOTC gives on running a noncaster in Strixhaven is "an ancestral guardian barbarian might study there".

Not how a noncaster can pass magic classes. Not the value of fighters and barbarians to a wizards school. No creation of a magical military police or having army in official partnership with the school. "You're the DM. Figure it out

A) Strixhaven was three years ago, so "to this day" seems a bit of a stretch

B) Your summary is not quite accurate. It states

Study at Strixhaven isn't about learning to be a wizard but about learning to be a historian, an artist, an orator, a scientist, or some other profession—while using magic to enhance one's studies. The university's understanding of magic is expansive. Characters of any class can study at Strixhaven, whether they're full-fledged spellcasters like wizards, clerics, and druids; they manage a spell or two thanks to a subclass or feat; or they manifest magical abilities that aren't even spells. (For example, a barbarian who follows the Path of the Ancestral Guardian, described in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, can excel in studying history at Lorehold College by virtue of their connection to an ancestral spirit.)

Magic is everywhere on campus. The campus culture encourages finding magical solutions to the most mundane problems, and if characters need access to a spell they can't cast, they have a strong chance of finding someone who can cast it.

So, yes. The setting that is a magical college that focuses on using magic, is a little vague on what to do if you want to play a Human Champion Fighter who has no magic whatsoever. I'm not sure why we would expect it to devote a lot of effort to "if you refuse to engage with the premise of the campaign". And yet, it still says it is open to people who have magic through feats, items, or non-spell abilities. It even directly states it isn't about studying magic, but studying things with magic. Which means if someone wants to play the muggle.. they can do that, but they have to be engaging with the setting to understand that is an intentional struggle.

Heck, I'm not even sure it is an actual struggle, as the character could be a scholar who utilizes magical items to make up for a lack of inborn magical talent. This is only a problem if you MAKE it a problem.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
OK? I don't see how this contradicts anything that I posted.

No one thinks that the character having brown eyes is a result of an action taken by the character, but players write that sort of thing down. No one thinks that being born in Greyhawk City is an action taken by the character, but players often write that sort of thing down. No one thinks that Dwarves around here often enjoy <such-and-such an activity> is a result of an action taken by the character, but in my experience players often write that sort of thing down too. All this stuff is part of the player imagining their PC in the course of setting up the game.

The book What is Dungeons & Dragons, published in 1982, showed the players helping establish backstory and setting context for their PCs. I realise that book was better known in the UK and Australia than the US, but I find it hard to believe that the whole notion was never known in the US at all.

To me, it seems that the idea of GM iron-hand authority over the setting in the context of PC backstory is a cultural practice, not an assumption in the game as such, that became particularly strong in the second half of the 80s (and is associated with other assumptions about GMs and setting that consolidated at the same time).

I mean, who do you think came up with the names of the Greyhawk countries? The players in the C&C Society, who in RPG terms were coming up with the homelands for their PCs.
Well, the second half of the 80s is when I got into D&D (1986 to be exact), and that is D&D for me, more or less. I'm cool with having a discussion about adding things to the world, but I don't see it as the right of the player to do so beyond their own character without clearing it with the DM.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
There is zero reason why group worldbuilding could be made either a base assumption or listed as an option other than an appeal to tradition. "Because it's tradition" is a bad reason to include something.

If you think something needs to remain in D&D, you better have a reason to convince me other than "it's the way we've always done it."
Worldbuilding by committee, in my opinion, lacks the clarity and vision that comes from an architect who provides the vast majority of the creative force and is in charge of primary decision-making. That's my reason.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I liked the earlier part of the thread, where there were a lot of different, nuanced posts on a full spectrum of opinion. Now we've reached the terminal portion of the thread, which, like most of others of its length, is reduced to "I hate the idea and cannot be assuaged by any argument, and will loudly and incessantly say so" and the "Here, let's try again to give you some context and facts". By this point, anyone with an intermediate viewpoint has long since fled, and the the arguments of the vehement detractors are like Melkor/Morgoth and his crew as the Ainur sang in front of Eru Illuvitar at creation in Tolkien's works: "it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice."
Hey, at least Iluvatar incorporated Melkor's most triumphant notes into the third theme.
 

pemerton

Legend
Well, the second half of the 80s is when I got into D&D (1986 to be exact), and that is D&D for me, more or less. I'm cool with having a discussion about adding things to the world, but I don't see it as the right of the player to do so beyond their own character without clearing it with the DM.
I don't regard your approach to D&D as any more normative, or "how things are to be done", than you regard mine.

In 1990, when I started a new FRPG campaign (using Rolemaster) some of the players asked for advice on where their PCs could come from (eg the Snow Elf was from the Crystalmists) and some asked for advice on an appropriate god for their PC (eg Issek of the Jug, from the Newhon chapter of DDG, for the paladin). Others made stuff up (eg the magic-user had been trained by a mentor who lived in a great hollow tree outside the village of Five Oak).

None of this was experienced by any of us as particularly radical. We worked together to create the fiction and context that we wanted for our game.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Do you know people from Ohio hate the Baltimore Ravens? They have good reasons too. There is an entire history.

It also has nothing to do with the 2024 DMG and the world building chapter of Greyhawk. Just like the 2021 Van Richtens guide has nothing to do with the discussion of the 2024 DMG and the world building chapter of Greyhawk, which this thread is about, other than you are mad they changed things in a way you don't like.

If I started spouting off about NFL teams for the next week, I would expect people to get miffed at me. Why shouldn't they get miffed at you for continuing to harp on a creative decision from three years ago that has nothing to do with the topic beyond "sometimes WotC does things I don't like"

We knew that. That isn't adding to the conversation.
I didn't bring up VRG first in this thread.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Origin of the cleric -- Player from Gary's Game wanted to play a vampire hunter.

The Circle of Eight, a fixture of Greyhawk -- Former PCs from Gary's Game.

Melf, Mordenkainen, Bigby, Tenser -- Former PCs from Gary's Game, who used spell creation rules to make the spells that are now in the PHB.

How many DOZENS of things could we find, if we dug down, that are now considered part of DnD or part of Greyhawk could be traced back to a PC doing something, and it becoming canon in the world? Now, that did change, once WoTC took over and the settings and books were not written off of personal campaigns, but don't act like DnD has never worked this way. That's how DnD STARTED
Everything starts somewhere, and that changed(for the most part) long before WotC took over.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I think you're just misunderstanding here. Perhaps you've forgotten the actual purpose of this sub-thread.

Let's pretend that this hypothetical chapter in the DMG on how to build your own campaign setting uses Greyhawk as an example (remember: we're not talking about a Greyhawk sourcebook here). What it should do is take each of the PC races and show how they are integrated into the campaign--even if this only requires no more than a simple "elves typically live in the forest, so they'll go here and goliaths typically live in the mountains so they'll go there."

(I have no idea how 5.5 is doing elf subraces, if they're doing them at all. But Greyhawk had grey, grugrach, valley, snow, and aquatic elves in addition to the standard high, wood, and drow elves, which can be a problem for some if this isn't addressed.)

What this hypothetical chapter should also do is talk about how these elves and goliaths live. What sort of society do they have? What sort of government? Do they get along with outsiders? Remember, this isn't a setting book; this is a chapter designed to teach DMs to how to make their own worlds, and therefore, these things are important. Even if these things can be reduced to a sentence or two, they're important: if you say "goliath communities nearly always have a ruler with absolute authority, tend to be wary of outsiders, are prone to xenophobia, and grow their food" it paints a much different picture than if you say "goliath communities nearly always are ruled by a council of the wise, tend to be wary of outsiders but welcoming of outsiders who earn their trust, and who hunt and gather their food."

Again: this is important for worldbuilding, the purpose of this chapter. There's a lot of overlap between DMing, worldbuilding, and writing, and learning what words to pick is important. And the sentences I wrote to describe an entire society? Short and to the point. Easily written by people who learn how to do it. Minimal chance that the writer is going to go delve too deeply into too much worldbuilding, like some people here have feared. Useful for players to build their character's backgrounds and personalities around.

So this chapter could, and should, have several examples of this. If it also acted as a primer for Greyhawk--which again, I say is a bad idea--then this would be a good instance to use all of the "new" (not in 1e) species in the examples, in addition to one or two of the standard ones. This way people who know Greyhawk from the past get the info they need as to where the new species go and people who are new to worldbuilding learn what to do. This is useful both for people who are creating their own setting and people who want to add additional species to Greyhawk.

So, since you literally just did the thing you think the chapter should do, why are you insisting that WotC cannot or will not do that? Why are Goliaths a problem, but dwarves aren't, if you can treat them literally the exact same way in the chapter?

Now, I will disagree with you, that teach someone how to worldbuild, they should make a paragraph each on what humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, gnomes, dragonborn, tiefling, Aasimar, Orcs, and Goliath culture, politics, and ecology are. You don't need to do that, to teach how to do that. You only need maybe three different examples. More than that, and you start moving into a setting book.

Again, you misunderstand. I'm didn't say that what goes into Greyhawk needs to meet my standards of coolness. I said that different people read sourcebooks for different reasons and have different needs.

And any writer who tries to make every single chapter match up to every different reason for every different need is never going to write anything of value. The target audience is not people who want to see how Greyhawk was changed for 5e. The writers should not consider them, because writing for those people will take away from who they are writing for.

Which is why I and some others have been saying it's a bad idea to use Greyhawk as the sample setting for this worldbuilding chapter. You are the one who keeps insisting it should be.

Because the reason you say it is bad, is because it will be forced to be a terrible teaching example because they will be required to bend the knee to the demands of people wanting a setting book, not a chapter on world-building.

If you want to argue that the Chapter in the DMG is going to be a naughty word setting book, I will agree with you. But it isn't guaranteed to be a bad chapter on how to world build, just because they used an existing setting. That is nonsensical. It would be like declaring that you can't teach someone how to make a new cake recipe unless you make one from scratch, because talking about how an existing recipe was made and why it works is impossible because baking pans have changed.

You are again misunderstanding. Or rather, you're confusing worldbuilding with actual play.

As it stands (I can't believe I have to repeat this), D&D spends most of its time talking about how evil orcs are. Their descriptions in the MM and VGM is evil. Changing their alignment to "usually chaotic evil" doesn't change any of this. It just means that the one lawful good orc you meet is "one of the good ones."

So if you (meaning WotC and worldbuilders) want orcs to be not always evil, that needs to be built into the world itself. If you say that the Orcish Empire of the Pomarj isn't chaotic evil, then you need to write it so that it's not chaotic evil, and that needs to be more than just noted in the alignment section; the Pomarj would have to actually reflect that. If you want the Pomarj to be evil but the tribes that live in this other part of Greyhawk aren't, then you need to write that as well.

That is still telling. "Show don't tell" is a writing phrase, telling authors not to info dump. You don't say "The woman was upset because her husband was dead" you show her being upset. Writing "The Orc Empire of Pomarj is good, and they have strong trade relations with the shield lands where their orcish paladins quest for the good of the common people" is still telling. You are telling me about the empire, the paladins, ect. SHOWING me that would be having character meet those orc paladins.

Yes, that is actual play instead of world-building, but like I said, ALL world building is telling. All of it. It is all information dumps and encyclopedia entries. None of it is showing.

Your point actually seems to be that it isn't good enough to say in the PHB that good orcs exist if the setting doesn't have a good tribe of orcs. That is a different problem than show don't tell. That's actually following through with what you are stating.

"Can" and "should" are two different things.

Why use Greyhawk as the sample setting to teach people how to worldbuild when you know that it's going to anger and confuse people? Why not just make a new setting from scratch?

Because making a new setting from scratch will also confuse and anger people. How dare they make a new setting instead of using their old settings! Why are they trying to force us grognards out of the game? People are declaring these things over the changes to how dragons look, making a whole new setting will still set those same people off.

And also, I think you keep forgetting this. It is an anniversary edition. They are celebrating DnD's History.

You can think that is stupid and pointless, but since they are going to upset people no matter what, the people who loved the game and have loved the game for most of therir lives, want to honor that game. And since the book is being published in a few months, I doubt the letters you have sent to their home office declaring their inevtiable failure have convinced them to suddenly change course and scrap everything they have done and announced.
 



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