D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Staffan]

My man, no one is hating on Greyhawk. The worst thing that has been said about it is that it is a kitchen sink style setting. And considering it includes fun-house dungeons, a literal cowboy turned God, and spaceships with moss aliens and laser guns... I think that is a fair cop, not hatred.

It is a kitchen sink setting from back when the kitchen sink was much smaller. Some people believe this means one should be restrictive with what one adds to it or changes in it.

Personally, I am utterly convinced that in the alternate reality where Gary Gygax keeps control of TSR, and where the Forgotten Realms is never published or pushed as the primary D&D setting, but D&D otherwise expands theme-wise in similar ways over the course of time, Greyhawk would look much like the Forgotten Realms does and would have been bent to accommodate every change in D&D. The only reason it hasn't is that it's been on ice, or at least sidelined, for much of the time since Gygax left.

 

[Staffan]

So do they have anything to do with Greyhawk? Someone upthread compared them to Thought Eaters. (Which, being from the AD&D MM, presumably are canonical to GH in some sense.)

There's nothing specifically Greyhawk about them to my knowledge, other than Greyhawk supposedly being the default setting of core 3e.

 

[KoolMoDaddy-O]

Heck, I think an adventure I played in once was supposed to be set in Greyhawk, where we traveled into the home of an old explorer, and found a yuan-ti laboratory in the basement where they were cloning people to make giant man-monsters.

Hey yo!

"Slave Vats of the Yuan-ti" was part of the Mere of Dead Men series so it was set in the Forgotten Realms but Imma big Greyhawk fan so yes, GH's gonzo Barrier Peak vibe leaked through when I wrote it. It can certainly be set there. In my home campaign I've placed it in the Hool Marshes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's the weird reason while the species deities (Moradin, Correlon, etc) exist officially in GH and FR, but no other setting. Or while KotB and Blackmoor are both part of the Flanaess and Known World of Mystara. Much of the early D&D stuff was supposed to exist in ALL D&D settings, it isn't until Dragonlance where the idea that official settings exclude things from the core books becomes a thing.

Interested that it wasn't until Dragonlance was released that I started to really like settings.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Agreed. Being "forged for war" does not mean being forged for a war currently in progress. It can also mean being forged to wage a potential war--or as a porcupine policy, to get aggressive neighbors to look elsewhere when considering conquest. Like what Finland and Sweden have done for decades, having some of the better European militaries despite maintaining decades or even centuries of neutrality (until very recently).

Right, but I am looking at the species as an archetype, suitable for many settings; that of the artificial life form, the "Data" if you will. That archetype does not need the forged for war story, and indeed is limited by it. And there is no official alternative to warforged for that archetype, short of the recently introduced autognome, whose name and origin also have problems.

This is why I use a variety of 3pp expressions of the concept, and would definitely change the name if I wanted to use warforged or autognome.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because plain and same-y is better? I honestly don't get this either.

And I get this even less. I'm a hardcore GH player. As I posted already, I own just about every GH setting product (I don't recall if I have the shorter book that accompanied publication of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer). I've GM hundreds, probably thousands, of hours of GH games, using a variety of systems: AD&D, Rolemaster, Burning Wheel, and Torchbearer 2e.

And after lecturing me (along with others) about my disrespect for the setting, it turns out you don't actually care about it! WTF is that about? Who gave you authority to police other people's engagements with published RPG settings?

I already backed off this issue. If you need a formal apology, you have it.

 

[TiQuinn]

I think what you say is true - except for "under-developed"; I think it's developed to basically the right degree.

But I think you undersell a bit. What GH has, that you don't mention, is tropes: it has ancient empires, demon-ruled kingdoms, thief-ruled cities, Dwarven fastnesses in the mountains, Elven kingdoms, pirates, etc - and all in the middle of the map! It supports classic FRPGing right out of the box: I mean, all you have to do is look at the map, read a sentence or two entry on each of the things there (the Free City of GH, the Bright Desert, the Lake of Unknown Depths, Celene and its Queen and its Prince Melf Brightblade, etc, etc) and then you're good to go!

Fair enough, you get a direction sign for a lot of the locations pointing you towards where to go with it. My point is that if I’m a DM who doesn’t want to come up with a setting all by myself, but I just need a start, not fully detailed the way FR is, Greyhawk is a good starting place.

 

[Parmandur]

Is this a GH thing I'm not recognising?

No, it was a 3E general product thing, which means it was part of Greyhawk.

 

[Remathilis]

It is a kitchen sink setting from back when the kitchen sink was much smaller. Some people believe this means one should be restrictive with what one adds to it or changes in it.

Personally, I am utterly convinced that in the alternate reality where Gary Gygax keeps control of TSR, and where the Forgotten Realms is never published or pushed as the primary D&D setting, but D&D otherwise expands theme-wise in similar ways over the course of time, Greyhawk would look much like the Forgotten Realms does and would have been bent to accommodate every change in D&D. The only reason it hasn't is that it's been on ice, or at least sidelined, for much of the time since Gygax left.

This is the real answer. The original blurb on how Kara Tur was meant for Greyhawk but ended up on Faerun post Gary's departure shows for Greyhawk was de-emphasized but if Gary hadn't left and went through with his version of 2e, D&D would be a radically different game.

 

[Remathilis]

Fair enough, you get a direction sign for a lot of the locations pointing you towards where to go with it. My point is that if I’m a DM who doesn’t want to come up with a setting all by myself, but I just need a start, not fully detailed the way FR is, Greyhawk is a good starting place.

For a lot of DMs, a little backstory and a lot of signposts is all you NEED! This sample chapter is designed for DMs starting out who haven't learned the fine art of creation and are looking for inspiration. You guys want to fight pirates? Head South. Interested in stopping Iuz's machinations? Head North. Want to explore the decaying ruins of an ancient metal dungeon? Go east. etc.