D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Yaarel]

Probably only statblocks and a sensitivity reader, from what I know about it. And official statements of where the non-standard PC species arise from so that people newer to the setting can enjoy their tieflings and whatnot and the old fans can accept it.

There needs to be sensitivity consultants from each reallife culture whose fantasy version is present.

 

[Staffan]

Was there anything at all in 4e? Much so far in 5e?

4e didn't have much setting material at all. 5e has seen Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and I think a lot of the adventures have guidelines for running them in Greyhawk instead of the default Realms.

But it was definitely a thing throughout 3e. The default pantheon in the core books was Greyhawk's, core adventures were set in Greyhawk (more or less, with Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil being on the "more" side), and you had a writeup of Saltmarsh in the DMG2.

 

[Staffan]

For Ravnica, broadening the audience by offering a Magic: The Gathering setting probably as a large part of it. Whether it was successful in doing so, I don't know.

I expect that Ravnica was quite successful, because if it hadn't been we probably wouldn't have gotten Strixhaven or Theros.

This was the vibe of Mystara, too. By the time your character reached 10th level, you were probably headed out to Norwold to start your own dominion and build your own stronghold. CM1: Test of the Warlords was the tutorial adventure for kingdoms and armies, much like The Keep on the Borderlands was the intro for dungeon crawls, and The Isle of Dread was the intro adventure for wilderness adventures and hexcrawls.

I wish strongholds and dominions were more prominent in later editions of D&D. Unfortunately, rules for them end up just getting stapled on in a splatbook or cobbled together by a third party, if they're given any thought at all. I don't want D&D to forget her wargaming roots.

There are two problems with stronghold/domain play at higher levels.

The first is that while it makes perfect sense for the characters to want semi-retirement where they can live off their ill-gotten gains in relative comfort, it's a pretty bad reward for the players. "OK, now you've gotten to 10th level and learned to enjoy the game, so now it's time to change to a different style of game."

The second is that domain play, at least as presented in previous editions, leaves something of a bitter aftertaste when combined with modern sensibilities. The base conceit is that you go somewhere on the borderlands of civilization, build a keep that might one day expand into a castle, raise an army, and then proceed to kick out any monsters in the nearby region. Basically, you are now the conquering horde.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Probably only statblocks and a sensitivity reader, from what I know about it. And official statements of where the non-standard PC species arise from so that people newer to the setting can enjoy their tieflings and whatnot and the old fans can accept it.

I don't even think the later is needed. Dwarfs and Elves never got an explanation. Neither did the other various humanoids.

Tieflings really need nothing said. given that several demon and devil summoning nations exist in greyhawk.

 

[CleverNickName]

There are two problems with stronghold/domain play at higher levels.

To your first point: the way that it's presented in the Companion Rules, running a domain or stronghold isn't "semi-retirement" or choosing a life of relative comfort. There are still vampire nests to clean out, ruins to explore, spies to thwart, dragons to slay, and all the same adventure hooks that you've been playing with since 1st level. Running a domain and managing an army in BECM felt closer to 5E's Downtime mechanic than anything else.

To your second point: yep, that is exactly right. Even the intro territory in CM1 (the newly-founded Kingdom of Norwold) is a wilderness, and you are expected to clash with frost giants, orcs, goblins, and other monsters that have been living there for centuries. It's up to you to decide what that clash looks like, though, and not everyone will want to be "the conquering horde." Forming alliances and sending gifts can sometimes be more effective (and cheaper) than open war. If your players think diplomacy is boring and they just want to wage war every day, well...they can certainly do that. At least it can happen in the background, and not interfere with the current quest?

Man. Now I wanna play CM1 again. ~sigh

 

[Staffan]

To your second point: yep, that is exactly right. Even the intro territory in CM1 (the newly-founded Kingdom of Norwold) is a wilderness, and you are expected to clash with frost giants, orcs, goblins, and other monsters that have been living there for centuries. It's up to you to decide what that clash looks like, though, and not everyone will want to be "the conquering horde." Forming alliances and sending gifts can sometimes be more effective (and cheaper) than open war. If your players think diplomacy is boring and they just want to wage war every day, well...they can certainly do that. At least it can happen in the background, and not interfere with the current quest?

The difference is that back in the day, frost giants, orcs, goblins, etc. were assumed to be Always Evil (well, Chaotic in BECMI) or nearly so, and that expanding your territory into theirs was a Good (well, Lawful) thing to do. These days, there's a greater recognition that these different peoples have their own valid cultures and so on. Just look at the differences between orcs of Mordor and those of Durotar, or of the Shadow Marches. So what right do the PCs have to take the land that belongs to the orcs?

Basically, the way we see Manifest Destiny and colonialism is very different today than it was seen in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Chaosmancer]

There are two problems with stronghold/domain play at higher levels.

The first is that while it makes perfect sense for the characters to want semi-retirement where they can live off their ill-gotten gains in relative comfort, it's a pretty bad reward for the players. "OK, now you've gotten to 10th level and learned to enjoy the game, so now it's time to change to a different style of game."

The second is that domain play, at least as presented in previous editions, leaves something of a bitter aftertaste when combined with modern sensibilities. The base conceit is that you go somewhere on the borderlands of civilization, build a keep that might one day expand into a castle, raise an army, and then proceed to kick out any monsters in the nearby region. Basically, you are now the conquering horde.

Yep, though that isn't to say that Bases and Strongholds can't work, the thought process behind them just has to change. I've run and played a few games (killed due to schedules) where we start off with an apocalypse and the base building becomes a "you are the heroes rebuilding civilization". The characters aren't going into retirement, they are gaining access to ways to make themselves and others better.

Some people like management, but others will be equally happy with "here is an alchemy lab that lets you make better alchemical items to take when the next threat arises."

It all comes down to campaign goals and presentation.

 

[Autumnal]

Remove all the SciFi, Western, and general non fantasy stuff
Inject currently popular themes

Of course, sf, Western, and “general” are popular themes.

 

[MNblockhead]

That would be my ideal, honestly, though I expect less info on heraldry and such.

But if they remove the heraldry, pages on trees, and climate details, and random weather tables, would it still be Greyhawk? ;-)

Snark aside, I do hope they keep the heraldry in. They don't need a page of it, just put the heraldry image with description of each main Kingdom. I will server to break up up the sections and give some flavor.

 

[MNblockhead]

Even Spelljammer isn't worthless, just too short: the campaign is excellent, solid Bestiary.

That's good to hear. I got it on D&D Beyond when they had a sale. But unless there is a lot of adventure material for the setting on DMs Guild, it just don't feel fleshed out enough for me to want to run a campaign in it. Though I could see using it for a few sessions in a campaign that isn't primarily focused on Spelljammer. I think I would mix it with an Eberron campaign just to enjoy gnashing of teeth from certain Eberron fans.