Greyhawk Setting Ressurected? Sorta Kinda..

[Outlaw]

Writing and publishing isn't just about making money, it's about sharing your work with the world. The sheer buzz of having someone genuinely say, "Hey, I like your work," is greater than any amount of cash. It's the fans who make ones work shine. Without them, ones work is just another scrap of paper with squiggly lines on it

Although I'm hesitant to flat out agree (as I'm not sure if I agree with the concept of shared ownership), I will comment on the buzz, which is a very real feeling.

The first time I had a play produced it was in front of thirty people and I was tingling all over (and not from the fever I had at the time). I remember the first time I had a play produced in front of nearly 700 people I almost wet my pants! It was an overwhelming experience and the last thing on my mind was whether or not I was making money.

 

[Outlaw]

Hackmaster being a joke

Hrm... not a joke setting?

Since this thread is talking about Greyhawk, I started a new thread about Hackmaster and whether or not it's a joke. ...and then I rambled on for awhile. Feel free to add your comments. I'm sure there are plenty of people on both sides of the game that would like to add their opinions.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Hackmaster.
Garweeze Wurld.
Gawds.
Groin Stomp.
Titan Gnomes.

and

Little Keep on the Borderlands.
Little Tomb of Horrors.
Annihilate the Giants.
Castle Greyhack.


Hrm... not a joke setting?

Like a good cook once told me. You can always add, but you can't subtract.

Read any of them beyond the title, and it'll be clear they aren't skewed, TOON-like versions of the originals.

 

[Darius101]

A famous magician once told me the best way for him to hide his tricks was to publish it because everyone would want to buy the book then it would just sit on the shelf and be forgotten. Many magicians are fooled badly by things they have sitting in books on their book shelves.

My point is that in order to really learn you must use this stuff. That means if you buy a module read through it and like it ...play it don't just let it sit there.
Read beyond the titles of the the hackmaster stuff and look at the material try it out...it can be rough on players big time and that is half the fun of playing it. Don't let the rules bog ya down shluff them off and trudge onward.
Fourdecks ----Greyhawk has never died ...it has been abondoned, used and abused by the parent company but it has NEVER truely died...why else would it keep coming back? You also point out thet EGG and RJK did not put alot out there?? huh? They frickin created the whole place....the others helped to flesh it out and are good game designers...so is Monte Cook and the rest who did 3e but they were let go from WOTC. My point here is that credentials and opinions aside, if this is done right then the fans will support it. Why would WOTC let people who designed something go when it still obviously makes money for them???? That is a retorical question that doesn't really need and answer..ok
hehehe short post.....
Darius
++out++
click .....

 

[DDK]

Fourdecks

Ok, this is the last time... it's FourEcks. That's F.O.U.R.E.C.K.S. There is NO D. If you keep doing this then I can only assume you're doing it to be a complete and utter ass.

You also point out thet EGG and RJK did not put alot out there?? huh? They frickin created the whole place....

What have they done? World of Greyhawk and a couple of modules. Anything else?

The majority of material has come from other writers, most notably Carl Sargent who wrote and designed From the Ashes, The Marklands, Iuz the Evil, Ivid the Undying as well as contributed to Folk, Feuds and Factions in the Greyhawk Adventures Boxed Set. Other notables include Roger Moore who wrote The Adventure Begins which brought events from 585 C.Y. to 591 C.Y., Kim Mohan, James Ward, Sean Reynolds and more current writers such as Erik Mona, Gary Holian, Fred Weining, .

I love the World of Greyhawk book. I think it's great and I think Gary did a great job. I haven't had the chance to look at any of the modules he wrote but from what I understand, they were pretty cool too.

But at the end of the day, Greyhawk as it stands today, is the product of hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of OTHER peoples work. A lot of which is very good work that the die-hard 1st edders would have you believe is heathan crap.

It is fairly well known that EGG requires a hefty sum to do anything on Greyhawk. Even David Kenzer indicated in one of the threads on the board that this may prove a prohibitive factor in Gary becoming a part of the project.

Rob engages in discussion on his message board and expresses his dislike for 2nd and 3rd ed material.

Which lead me to, and I believe justifiably, my comment that they care more about money and their own political preferences than the setting or the fans.

They're more than welcome to dispute this here as I have absolutely NO doubt that they are aware of this thread and the others.

But like I said, I doubt they will.

 

[Alzrius]

Since I first heard about this, my reaction has been mostly negative. However, I've since heard some positive points of view here about this, which has made me stop and sit back to think about where I'm coming from here. Ultimately, I'm still not happy with the idea of Greyhawk being redone for HackMaster, but I think I'm a bit clearer on why now:

- HackMaster takes itself less seriously. It isn't a joke, per se (more on that in that other thread), but it doesn't take itself as seriously as D&D does, spoofing itself many times over. Does that make it an inherently lesser game? No, every campaign has (or should have) comedy relief, and HackMaster isn't all-spoof all the time. But what bothers me is that this is Greyhawk we're talking about. The original D&D world here. In my opinion, it deserves respect, and it won't find it in HackMaster (not to the degree it did in D&D anyway). D&D gamers take their game seriously, despite (or perhaps because of) the masses having an uninformed view of the game, and seeing the classic campaign world brought back for a spoof-heavy game makes me cringe somewhat.

- If I'm interested in looking into new Greyhawk material, I don't want to have to buy books for a new system. I don't want to have to buy the HackMaster Player's Handbook ($30), HackMaster GameMaster's Guide ($30), and all eight Hacklopedias of Beasts ($20 each) just to be able to fully use the new Greyhawk supplements that are put out. Nor do I want to have to manually convert the material to 3E, which can be quite a bit of time and effort to do. If I wanted to do that I'd just write my own adventures instead of purchasing pre-made ones. Greyhawk is practically synonomous with D&D, and it seems awkward to have to consider buying books for another roleplaying system just to use new Greyhawk material, especially when I could be spending that money on new 3E material.

I'm glad the old world is getting attention again, but this is not the way I would see it done.

 

[Legba]

The benefits of a Hacked GreyHawk, as far as I can see is:

1) A suported version of GreyHawk. -- I havn't seen much from WotC on this matter, but then I can't say I've realy been looking, so I could be mistaken.

2) A version true to the original. -- Seriously. If anything can be said for the Kenzer & co folks, it's that they make quality work, and take the game and it's fans seriously. If anything, they'll treat GreyHawk with respect.

3) GreyHawk for 1st/2nd edition. -- There's a conversion project in the works to make conversion rules for HackMaster to 1st/2nd edition and vice versa. Those who still play 1st or 2nd edition AD&D will have new material for GreyHawk that should be easy to convert. And that's always nice.

I'm sure there are other reasons, both good and bad, but those were the ones at the top of my mind.



Emanuel

 

[Alzrius]

3) GreyHawk for 1st/2nd edition. -- There's a conversion project in the works to make conversion rules for HackMaster to 1st/2nd edition and vice versa. Those who still play 1st or 2nd edition AD&D will have new material for GreyHawk that should be easy to convert. And that's always nice.

I'd be more excited if there was also a HackMaster/3E conversion in the works, considering that the amount of 3E players almost certainly eclipse those who continue to play 1E or 2E and not update.

 

[Legba]

The way I hear it, they're going to work on that after 1st/2nd edition. The problem is, 3rd edition is so far removed from 1st & 2nd as to be an entierly new game rather than a new edition. So a straight conversion is hard.
However, knowing Kenzer & co products, the background and setting information ought to be plenty good in itself, and it'd just be a matter of putting in the right creatures here and there, and making d20 stats for the NPCs.
Speaking of that, there's a site where they make d20 stats for various HackMaster monsters... but I seem to have lost the URL. Sorry about that.


Emanuel

 

[DDK]

The benefits of a Hacked GreyHawk, as far as I can see is:

1) A suported version of GreyHawk. -- I havn't seen much from WotC on this matter, but then I can't say I've realy been looking, so I could be mistaken.

You are. In every issue of Dragon magazine, and now Dungeon magazine, there has been a dedicated Greyhawk section called the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.

Now, admittedly, it's not much and it's certainly not on par with modules, or boxed sets, but then it is Greyhawk specific and it is done by fans of the setting.

It also could be argued that support ISN'T what Greyhawk needs. In fact, I think you'll find on your own boards that the majority of people think the majority of GH material produced is crap. But of course, that's because it wasn't created by 'true' fans, ie. them or Gary.

What a load of horse doodoo.

2) A version true to the original. -- Seriously. If anything can be said for the Kenzer & co folks, it's that they make quality work, and take the game and it's fans seriously. If anything, they'll treat GreyHawk with respect.

I'm sure they do make quality work. But what constitutes 'the original'? To me, Carl Sargent's work is the best written and designed of all Greyhawk products. However if you listen to most of the die-hard, old schoolers over at Kenzer, then he's practically Satan.

A version that is 'true to the original', therefore, would most likely do away with all the fantastic material that has been produced for the setting and has given it the life it currently has. That's not a Greyhawk I'm interested in and not a Greyhawk I particularly want to see come about.

The way I hear it, they're going to work on that after 1st/2nd edition. The problem is, 3rd edition is so far removed from 1st & 2nd as to be an entierly new game rather than a new edition. So a straight conversion is hard.

Well, I disagree. I've done a number of 1st/2nd ed. conversions to 3rd ed. and have found it incredibly easy to do. The most significant difference between the editions is that 3rd ed. has a rule for something whereas in 2nd ed. you had to make it up yourself. This lead to huge imbalances in the system, something that was addressed in 3rd ed. by standardizing various rules.

In fact, converting something to 1st/2nd ed. from 3rd ed. is FAR more difficult. To do the reverse, all you have to do is find the rule and apply it. Do do this, you have to make it up yourself based on... nothing but luck, hope and whatever ingenuity you have.