D&D 5E Greyhawk Sub-Classes

[Remathilis]

two thoughts

1. World-specific subclasses are a fairly rare thing. The obvious early attempt at ones from Sword Coast Guide have been kinda forgotten about, and most of the latter ones (Wildemount's and Ravnica's) still feel genetic enough to see play outside those worlds.

2. Greyhawk is kinda known for being mechanically genetic, isn't it? It doesn't stand out as having a lot of odd concepts not supported by the core rules of the given edition it is being played in. The only example I can think of where an edition had to install its own Greyhawk-specific rules was 2e, and that was mostly just to get assassin, monk, and half-orc back.

So with that, in not sure any of those are iconic enough to need a separate sub. A radiant servant of Pelor is not much different than a light domain cleric. A fang of Lolth doesn't sound too different than an assassin rogue. And I don't know if there is a knighthood that can't be replicated by the paladin or cavalier fighter.

 

[Helldritch]

two thoughts

1. World-specific subclasses are a fairly rare thing. The obvious early attempt at ones from Sword Coast Guide have been kinda forgotten about, and most of the latter ones (Wildemount's and Ravnica's) still feel genetic enough to see play outside those worlds.

2. Greyhawk is kinda known for being mechanically genetic, isn't it? It doesn't stand out as having a lot of odd concepts not supported by the core rules of the given edition it is being played in. The only example I can think of where an edition had to install its own Greyhawk-specific rules was 2e, and that was mostly just to get assassin, monk, and half-orc back.

So with that, in not sure any of those are iconic enough to need a separate sub. A radiant servant of Pelor is not much different than a light domain cleric. A fang of Lolth doesn't sound too different than an assassin rogue. And I don't know if there is a knighthood that can't be replicated by the paladin or cavalier fighter.

Fully agree on that. I would even add that we have more than enough player options. The faction road is more appropriate than new classes or new subclasses. The only subclasses I would (not really) like to see are psionic ones. I don't like psionics but they have been in D&D from almost the beginning so I guess that despite my aversion to psionics, we should have something of these in the future. But for Greyhawk, I think that the faction option is the way to go.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

But for Greyhawk, I think that the faction option is the way to go.

Well, except that:

1. Factions are kind of stupid (IMO), don't seem to be that popular overall, and quite frankly are very much an FR-thing.

2. Subclasses in 5e aren't that different mechanically, for the most part. So it's not like the creation of entire new classes.

3. Someone has already done an amazing job of showing how easy it would be to create GH-specific subclasses and feats with 100s of pages.


There is even a link to it in this thread.

 

[Helldritch]

Well, except that:
1. Factions are kind of stupid (IMO), don't seem to be that popular overall, and quite frankly are very much an FR-thing.

Exactly. That is your opinion. I do not consider my opinion as being stupid. And no, factions are not an FR thing. Ravnica did a really good shot at it. Have you read it? In my area, factions are really appreciated. Some, like me, have adapted what Ravnica did with the factions and applied it to factions in their world (as I have done in my Greyhawk.)

2. Subclasses in 5e aren't that different mechanically, for the most part. So it's not like the creation of entire new classes.

Too much of a good thing spoils the broth just as surely as not enough. The plague of prestige classes in 3.xed was a turn off for many. It was good for some, bad for others. There are no concept that can't be done with those in the PHB already. As I have said in an other post, we had a samurai in one of my games long before the published samurai of 5ed.

3. Someone has already done an amazing job of showing how easy it would be to create GH-specific subclasses and feats with 100s of pages.

There is even a link to it in this thread.

Again this is your appreciation. I would not have done so. I read it and was not impressed. The amount of work is amazing that I concede. But it is far from what I would have done. Greyhawk is supposed to be non specific. Yes some cleric had special abilities back in the 1ed and in fact, it is the cleric side of the work mentioned in this document that is the best (IMO). The rest is a matter of taste and personal orientation of how you see Greyhawk...

I've been playing a long time and Greyhawk is my favorite setting by far. Only 11 gods originally had their clerics imbued with some additional powers. Celestian, Ehlonna, Erythnul, Heironeous, Hextor, Incabulos, Obad-hai, Olidammara, Pholtus, Triteron and Wastri. Most of these would not require special treatment but a simple domain or a unique spell or an additional access to a spell.

When you create a new subclass or an entire class; it should be something that can't be done without using the classes and subclasses already in place. We had a very convincing samurai based on the battlemaster template. We had a very convincing (perhaps even too convincing) cavalier on the champion template and an other one out of the paladin of the protection oath template. Both were good, fun and did not required us to buy a new book (even if I have all of them so far, new books should be about new adventures and rules. But that is my opinion). If it can be done with the existing classes, why do them? The artificer was a great addition, so was the Hexblade and the master mind and a few others. The sun soul monk was really good. In other words they were not necessarily achievable without a new subclass (or it would've been quite hard to do).

 

[the Jester]

Factions are kind of stupid (IMO), don't seem to be that popular overall, and quite frankly are very much an FR-thing.

Yeah, gonna have to disagree here on both counts. They aren't stupid (although that's just my opinion), and they are absolutely not "very much an FR-thing"- they exist in every setting, even if informally. In Greyhawk, the Scarlet Brotherhood, the Circle of Eight, the Valley of the Mage, the various knightly orders, the forces of Elemental Evil, Suel racial supremacists, the Horned Society, spies for Iuz- that's just a start. My own setting leans heavily into factions for any number of things, and pcs who choose to engage with factions often get benefits, adventures, and responsibilities out of it. Factions are like cliques in high school- not everyone belongs to one, and they aren't always explicit, but they're there.

 

[the Jester]

I've been playing a long time and Greyhawk is my favorite setting by far. Only 11 gods originally had their clerics imbued with some additional powers. Celestian, Ehlonna, Erythnul, Heironeous, Hextor, Incabulos, Obad-hai, Olidammara, Pholtus, Triteron and Wastri.

Well, there's a reason for that- when the GH set with those details was published, only those gods had special cleric abilities because only those gods, at that point, had had write ups in Dragon Magazine. That's where those special abilities first showed up. Later articles (I think by Leonard Lakofka) detailed the Suel gods, like Lendor, and gave them additional powers as well. So don't take the fact that only the listed gods had special cleric abilities detailed as an indicator that the other gods' servants wouldn't have had them, too.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Factions are like cliques in high school

If you are trying to say that factions aren't stupid, and convince people of that, then that is not the best analogy to use!

I have read and enjoyed Ravnica, but I will continue to state that factions are a silly game addition (if you can call something that is barely there an addition) that I have no use for.

Factions are of so little importance that they are not part of the PHB. They are an option in the DMG. (Harpers, Zhentarim). If you look for a source on WOTC, you find the AL "five factions" of Zhentarim, Harpers, Lord's Alliance, and Emerald Enclave- FR Factions.

If you like factions, I am glad that this particular 5e mechanic works for you. I don't need a supplement for Greyhawk to say, "Hey, there's groups, but instead of calling them "nations" like the Scarlet Brotherhood or even referring to them as the Circle of Eight, we will introduce a kinda sorta mechanic that will remind you of that really stupid thing you left behind in high school."

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

When you create a new subclass or an entire class; it should be something that can't be done without using the classes and subclasses already in place.

And maybe instead of having "factions" we can just say, "Look, it's the Scarlet Brotherhood."

Your point can be made however people want; why do we need a Samurai subclass if you can just do it with a Champion fighter? If you enjoy a small bit of mechanical differentiation to help give additional flavor to the world (something Gary Gygax did in his home campaign) then this would be fun.

If not, you can have fun in your own way!

 

[Helldritch]

If you are trying to say that factions aren't stupid, and convince people of that, then that is not the best analogy to use!

Agree. But factions are not stupid. It is a sound mechanic that does not rely on creating more classes and subclasses.

I have read and enjoyed Ravnica, but I will continue to state that factions are a truly inane game addition (if you can call something that is barely there an addition) that I have no use for, and think that they only work if they are setting-specific.

Great! So how many factions in Greyhawk should they bring?

Factions are of so little importance that they are not part of the PHB. They are an option in the DMG. (Harpers, Zhentarim). If you look for a source on WOTC, you find the AL "five factions" of Zhentarim, Harpers, Lord's Alliance, and Emerald Enclave- FR Factions.

Wrong, They are in the DMG. And in the ADL of course. Factions should be a DM thing that they will bring to their players. It gives the faction an air of mystery and that it is on invitation basis.

If you like factions, I am glad that this particular 5e mechanic works for you. I don't need a supplement for Greyhawk to say, "Hey, there's groups, but instead of calling them "nations" like the Scarlet Brotherhood or even referring to them as the Circle of Eight, we will introduce a kinda sorta mechanic that will remind you of that really stupid thing you left behind in high school."

Wrong. Factions would be a good way. There are not that many. Churches are easily handled with domains. A few order of knighthoods, Iuz's agents, Circle of eight agents and a few others would be more than enough. And leave the "stupid" comments out of your vocabulary. It does not suit this forum. I admit that the example was not the best but you should see beyond and think about it further. There have been factions all along our history. From the templars to the Illuminatis and many others. Just do not throw a good idea because the basic example used does not suite your fancy.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Agree. But factions are not stupid.

Except they are.

Great! So how many factions in Greyhawk should they bring?

They should have exactly as many as Gary Gygax used. Certainly no more.

Wrong, They are in the DMG. And in the ADL of course. Factions should be a DM thing that they will bring to their players. It gives the faction an air of mystery and that it is on invitation basis.

It's interesting that you said wrong, and then repeated what I just said. I just wrote that they are not in the PHB, and then I said that they are in the DMG and gave the five in the ADL.

I know you want to argue, but that's kind of silly!

Wrong.

That's the second time you started that way! It's not silly anymore, is it? I do not wish to engage you in conversation, and I am certainly not going to argue with someone like you.