D&D 5E Grind-out fights, unconscious heroes, and retreat

[redrick]

2. Negative hit points, not death saves - Your hp can go negative and you die at negative hp = your max hp. No healing from 0. Attacks vs helpless are auto-crit, but no death saves. In practice this MASSIVELY ENHANCES PC survivability, because (a) monsters chewing on helpless PCs will often take several rounds to kill them and (b) without pop-up PCs or fast kills, intelligent monsters have no incentive to target the fallen, so they focus on PCs still standing. And w/out death saves, in case of a lost battle PCs will often be captured, not killed. I do use a death save after 1 hour unconscious - pass and you have short rested & can spend hit dice to recover, fail & we roll again in 1 hour, you only die after 3 consecutive fails. Also if you were taken to 0 by a crit from a piercing or slashing weapon you are bleeding out & I'll use the RAW.

edit: auto-crits from slashing/piercing while helpless also impose a death save fail, or 2 death save fails with a dagger.

I'll say for myself that I actually really like the mechanic of death saves as opposed to negative hit points. I like that the unconscious player still has one thing to do on their turn in combat, and I like the nail-biting of it. It's a little weird that a kobold's dagger is as life-threatening as an ogre's great-club (once you get past low levels and have enough hitpoints to avoid the auto-kill from most weapon damage), but I can rationalize it.

 

[bedir than]

Games that don't include retreat get boring. Characters should feel threatened. They should be forced into hard decisions. They should be able to die in glorious fashion. If every single combat is just a speed bump where is the thrill of victory?

 

[Beleriphon]

Yeah, but let's face it, players are really the true monsters.

On that note I've always wanted to run a game where the players run a gang of kobolds. They never get better, never gain levels and if they die the sibling of the dead kobold takes over. Kind of like Kobolds Ate My Baby without being quite so obviously silly.

 

[S'mon]

I'll say for myself that I actually really like the mechanic of death saves as opposed to negative hit points. I like that the unconscious player still has one thing to do on their turn in combat, and I like the nail-biting of it. It's a little weird that a kobold's dagger is as life-threatening as an ogre's great-club (once you get past low levels and have enough hitpoints to avoid the auto-kill from most weapon damage), but I can rationalize it.

'Dead in 18 seconds' works ok in 4e, which rejects Simulationism completely, but I like more of a
balanced approach in 5e. I don't think I'd ever want the complete lack of negative hp, I've never seen that work well in any game.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Games that don't include retreat get boring. Characters should feel threatened. They should be forced into hard decisions. They should be able to die in glorious fashion. If every single combat is just a speed bump where is the thrill of victory?

Retreat has been hard to work into D&D and games like it. In 1e there were rules for 'Pursuit & Evasion of Pursuit,' but they really weren't a lot more than comparing movement rates. Sufficient magic - flight or teleportation or etherealness - was always an option, but rarely for a whole party. In 4e the DM could construct a skill challenge to escape or evade a too-powerful foe, but you'd usually want to do that ahead of time, until the RC version, SCs were tricky.

13th Age probably did the best retreat option I've seen: very simply, the players can choose to retreat, but they take a 'campaign loss,' something bad happens because of their failure. It's profoundly story-oriented, which may not be right for many 5e campaigns, but it's pretty good.

 

[Chocolategravy]

This is what is called a "deadly" fight. Probably shouldn't have more than 2 or 3 of those per game day.

 

[S'mon]

Retreat has been hard to work into D&D and games like it. In 1e there were rules for 'Pursuit & Evasion of Pursuit,' but they really weren't a lot more than comparing movement rates. Sufficient magic - flight or teleportation or etherealness - was always an option, but rarely for a whole party. In 4e the DM could construct a skill challenge to escape or evade a too-powerful foe, but you'd usually want to do that ahead of time, until the RC version, SCs were tricky.

I usually go with "You're off the battle mat? You got away."
At worst I would use a d% chance of evasion as in 1e, or in 4e a single Athletics or Endurance check.
IRL most people escape a losing battle, I've never grokked why some GMs seem to have a thing
about making retreat hard or impossible. Once you break contact with the enemy you're out of
combat. Maybe they can track you down later if they're really determined, but usually not.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6777696]redrick[/MENTION]
Good topic Sounds like a fun time was had by all!

I have some specific thoughts about the 3 concerns you raise (retreat of PCs, combat grind, and unconsciousness lacking punch), but first my friendly word of advice:

Stop pussy-footing with running your monsters. (That is meant to be a bit tongue in cheek, seeing as you threw a super deadly encounter at them ) When it makes sense for them to go for the kill, then go for the kill hard. Rather than think of the "gentleman's agreement" being monsters don't go for the kill, I think of it as just the reverse. I respect my players enough to throw real challenges their way, and when appropriate for the story/NPC/monster, sometimes the opposition is going to be out to kill. Not all the time, but when it makes sense.

Ok, now more specific tips...

Retreat of PCs
Players hate to retreat unless they have a very good reason (beyond even self-preservation). If you want to get them to even consider it, try one of these tricks:

• Have a group of monsters that routinely pull off retreats followed up by guerilla raids and ambushes afterward. Show the players that it's a viable strategy.
• Create a lull in the fighting when a battle is sorely going against PCs where an enemy specifically offers them an honest chance to withdraw with their wounded/dead.
• Have an objective to the combat that encourages retreat. This makes it feel less like failure and more like strategic choice. For example, getting a PC convincingly captured and taken behind enemy lines to infiltrate a target. Another example: An ally several hundred yards away sounds a horn calling on the PCs aid or to rally in the keep. Another example: The PCs have a magic object or piece of intelligence they can't let the enemies get their hands on.

Combat grind
I've noticed this in challenging fights with lots of monsters. Some tricks I use to minimize grind:

• When I anticipate a long fight, design "scene changers" that I can introduce every couple rounds to keep things fresh. Sometimes I couple these with the ideas in the DMG about allowing players to recharge certain abilities at a dramatic moment; usually I try to frame this as something overtly magical or as a lull in the fighting where enemies circle one another or seek cover.
• Make use of the morale rules in the DMG.
• Come up with goals for the PCs in such encounters besides "kill all monsters." Sometimes that is fun, but "kill all monsters" works best as a goal for either small skirmishes or for rare set piece battles. Most fights should have other goals that if accomplished can signal an end to the fight.
• Occasionally introduce terrain that the PCs or monsters can interact with to wreck havoc on their foes.

Unconsciousness Lacking Punch
While to some extent this depends on the party's availability of healing, 5e does suffer a bit of the "revolving door of death" problem. Some things I've been trying out...

• Use injury rules in DMG for when a PC fails a death save. This puts a stop to the "oh, we have plenty of time to save the thief who is bleeding out, don't worry."
• Sometimes have a hostile environment that being unconscious in is really not good. For example, a foot of water on the floor, grasping hands dragging unconscious people into caverns, a whispering voice infiltrating the minds of incapacitated people driving them mad, a death aura siphoning off life force making death saves disadvantagred, etc.
• When a PC falls unconscious, have smart monsters adapt their strategy to focus on the party's weak point. This should create urgency to getting that PC back up. For example, if the rogue goes down, the monsters should be less cautious about being flanked and should advance. If the cleric can get thru the monster's lines to the rogue, now the rogue and cleric are on the other side of the monsters from the rest of the PCs and are likely to be swarmed.

Caveat: If you run a game where PC death doesn't really happen, these guidelines probably won't apply to your group.

 

[redrick]

Retreat has been hard to work into D&D and games like it. In 1e there were rules for 'Pursuit & Evasion of Pursuit,' but they really weren't a lot more than comparing movement rates. Sufficient magic - flight or teleportation or etherealness - was always an option, but rarely for a whole party. In 4e the DM could construct a skill challenge to escape or evade a too-powerful foe, but you'd usually want to do that ahead of time, until the RC version, SCs were tricky.

13th Age probably did the best retreat option I've seen: very simply, the players can choose to retreat, but they take a 'campaign loss,' something bad happens because of their failure. It's profoundly story-oriented, which may not be right for many 5e campaigns, but it's pretty good.

Ha, yeah, not sure exactly how "liking it" goes, but I do think retreat can work fine within the 5e combat mechanics, not to mention the fact that it also lends itself to non-combat mechanics. You don't need a "skill challenge" to handle action adjudication.

Usually, if PCs are willing to surrender the primary objective of a fight to monsters or NPCs, they've already won half the retreating battle. Sometimes, it really can be that simple.

But, if monsters are interested in pursuit, you can always make a fighting retreat. Any characters not already engaged in melee can withdraw up to their movement speed while firing at pursuers. Melee combatants who are not completely surrounded and can handle another few hits can take their chances on opportunity attacks, and either attack and withdraw, or double dash. Melee combatants low on hp are stuck disengaging and withdrawing, not allowing them to put any distance between them and pursuers, but, as long as those ranged characters are helping to cover the retreat, pursuers can still be killed or dissuaded. If there is any sort of choke point or corridor, obstacles and hazards can be strewn behind. The rogue can ready an action to scatter caltrops, ball bearings or a flask of oil once the last PC passes, and then still dash away with cunning action. Control spells can be cast immediately behind the fleeing party, creating difficult terrain, obscured terrain, hazardous terrain, etc. All of this is sticking to actions that are very clearly covered in the rules, without having to adjudicate any improvised actions on the fly.

Now, if a PC is already unconscious, things do get a lot harder. This is one of the challenges that we face in my game a lot — the party doesn't realize they are outclassed until somebody gets knocked out, at which point, if healing spells are not available, they are stuck trying to drag a character away. I still think a determined party could figure out how to extricate a fallen comrade from a combat without ever resorting to any pesky role-playing, but that is certainly harder than just holding your ground and grinding it out. (After all, the DM isn't really going to let a TPK happen, will he?)

In my opinion, the things that most get in the way of retreat are:

* People are stubborn and hate admitting defeat
* Retreat requires a major strategic and tactical shift as the players and their characters adopt all new objectives
* When playing on a battlemat, there is a bit of a subconscious instinct to "stay in bounds". "You're off the battlemat, you got away", doesn't always feel believable to players or DM. Players know exactly what is detailed on their 30x30 grid, but have only vague imaginations of whatever lies beyond it, so it's harder to visualize and articulate a strategy for retreat.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Ultimately, the only time monsters won't seriously consider killing PCs as they take them down is if the odds of a TPK are so assured that it is more efficient to knock everybody out first, or if the monsters are themselves marching into Total Monster Kill, in which case they'll do their best to maximize their slender, slender odds at killing all the PCs before the PCs kill all of them, which means focusing fire on the PC with the best damage to vulnerability ratio.

Isn't that the vast majority of situations, though? Whenever the odds aren't overwhelmingly in your favor, it's always possible that one attack will be the difference between your own life and death. If the monster wastes a turn on the unconscious target, instead of the active one, then that increases the chance of a PC taking that monster down in the next round.

This is true even when you're talking about hungry monsters, who want to drag an enemy back to their lair. During those three rounds of dragging, there's a good chance that a living PC is going to cut you down. The greatest chance of you getting out of any situation alive, short of fleeing immediately upon seeing the party, is to engage the living PCs and ignore the fallen ones. (In the presence of healing magic, treat "fallen" characters as "potentially living, and highly vulnerable".) Stopping to dispatch the non-combatants will do nothing for you if you end up dead.

I guess, short of an Evil Overlord that the monster fears much worse than death. In that kind of situation, you might get minions who are willing to do the tactically stupid thing and dispatch the fallen immediately, even knowing that it's probably going to get them killed in short order.