Gritty gone?

[brehobit]

OK,
So I've largely run "gritty" games. And while 3.x wasn't the best for that type of game, it could be made to work, mainly by running lower-level games. I'm thinking 4e won't work for this at all. Low-level play isn't "that" low-level, lots of blasting, etc. Makes me sad.

That said, 4e looks like a great game. Just not the type of role-playing I generally prefer. I've got the first 3 books on pre-order and look forward to reading them and playing some. But I very much doubt it will be my game of choice....

Mark

 

[Zamkaizer]

Why not take this opportunity to try Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay? Doesn't get much grittier than that.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Powers at will =/= strong

Too much grittyness is bad for a game, I say. It was the problem perhaps, especially older editions.

 

[Celebrim]

It won't be easy.

However, if it was only the 'gritty' factor that was a problem in 4E I think I could manage to put it back in.

Unfortunately, there are so many areas that I'd feel the need to overhaul that flaws like 'six hours cures all ills' are just minor parts of the whole mess from my perspective.

 

[Cyronax]

Having played a lot of different encounters in 4e at the D&D XP over the weekend, I will say that the grittiness is what you make of it.

We had two TPKs in the Living Forgotten Realms previews (I know ... embarrassing) and I also noticed that 4e is a DM-empowering game, in that he/she the DM gets to set the tone a lot more.

If the DM is standard/nice then the of course the party will have 5 minutes between encounter to recharge some of their abilities. BUT, what if the DM rules that since the PC's enemies are aware of the party's presence in their precious dungeon, that they can't allow them to catch their breaths? In essence, a well prepared BBEG sends waves of minions (and more badness) out to harry the party, trying to force them to call off their attack.

To go further, from a roleplaying perspective, nothing has changed. Its up to the DM to provide gritty flavor. The 4e combat rules merely shift complexity from one area to another in regards to 3.5.

Likewise, I truly think that when they say magic items aren't required, its true. Magic items weren't decisive in most of the victories of the Delves I participated in.

Also, as I indicated, character death is still very possible.

Just IMO.

C.I.D.


I' m no 4e fan boy. I am on the fence as well. But it was still fun. Not sure if it will be a fun, overall, as 3.5 was.

 

[Celebrim]

Cyronax: I think it would be a mistake to equate 'grittiness' directly with 'lethality'. 'White Plume Mountain' is extremely lethal (probably more lethal than the more famous 'Tomb of Horrors), but it's not at all gritty.

As I understand the term, 'gritty' implies 'versimilitude = realism'. That is to say, 'gritty' at least in part is an attempt to emulate something reminescent of the real world or a real historical period, often with the additional assumption that real world myths and legends were real. Hense, common features of 'gritty campaigns' are overt magic is somewhat rare, diseases should be prevelant and feared, injuries require some amount of rest to recover from, filth is common, the natural environment is to be feared and respected, travel is difficult, anachronisms are avoided, and so forth.

 

[small pumpkin man]

I personally feel that Warhammer Fantasy goes beyond gritty, into dirtfamer.

I've always gone to d20 modern/past for my gritty needs.

As for 4e, I guess it depends on what you mean by gritty, if you mean, "heroic but human and bad luck can happen" then you can probably mess with healing surges, dying & crits to get what you want.

If you have a problem with the action movie/mythic nature of the martial exploits then even with the help of your players it might not be worth the effort.

 

[Cyronax]

Cyronax: I think it would be a mistake to equate 'grittiness' directly with 'lethality'. 'White Plume Mountain' is extremely lethal (probably more lethal than the more famous 'Tomb of Horrors), but it's not at all gritty.

As I understand the term, 'gritty' implies 'versimilitude = realism'. That is to say, 'gritty' at least in part is an attempt to emulate something reminescent of the real world or a real historical period, often with the additional assumption that real world myths and legends were real. Hense, common features of 'gritty campaigns' are overt magic is somewhat rare, diseases should be prevelant and feared, injuries require some amount of rest to recover from, filth is common, the natural environment is to be feared and respected, travel is difficult, anachronisms are avoided, and so forth.

I may/probably will concede that point (by the time 4e comes out). The recharge nature of many of the encounters of the 4e previews made me feel pretty powerful for a 1st lvl character. 1st level characters that are cocky have a better chance of surviving than in 3.5. That's not sooo gritty ...... according to standard definitions of gritty. As just a combat encounter though, the 4e rules were fun.

Well met.

C.I.D.

 

[Guild Goodknife]

Instant grittiness rule: Instead of regaining all your healing surges after a 6 hour rest, you only regain 1.

Nightmare mode: You regain 1 per week.

 

[Pale Jackal]

I do enjoy "gritty", not that I've played in too many gritty games... but I think house-ruling 4E might be possible...

Possibly remove the teleport effects (or alternately, just use the four magic-less core classes), reduce the amount of HP damage you can sustain, and possibly introduce an exhaustion penalty with bloodied.

Maybe do something to simulate long-term wounds.

Edit: Goodknife has a workable suggestion, of course, I view HP in 4E as more morale/exhaustion, rather than physical damage, so I'm not sure if I'd use it.