Gritty gone?

Raith5

Adventurer
Guild Goodknife said:
Instant grittiness rule: Instead of regaining all your healing surges after a 6 hour rest, you only regain 1.

Nightmare mode: You regain 1 per week.

Interesting idea. I like what I see about 4th ed but I cant help that the number of healing surges are a bit over the top for me. So some form of restriction on them (and no auto heal via an extended rest) may add a bit of realism/believability to the process. Regaining 1 surge per week might be too much though!
 

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Fallen Seraph

First Post
Personally I view grittiness as less a mechanical standpoint and more a visual/Roleplaying standpoint.

I know my first campaign will be quite gritty. The combat will be fierce and violent and dirty. The world around them will be unforgiving and its creatures resourceful and cunning.

I will still keep the basic rules, but bring in things like:

-Multi-stage encounters, where players cannot rest and are flung back into the fray.

-Extended rests being disrupted by storms, enemies, sickness, etc.

-Serious injuries being Roleplayed out.

-Having fewer resources both in supplies, repairs, and knowledge of an area.

-Really making it seem that the players survive and manage to survive not from luck, but because they truly are; more resourceful, stronger, and simply have toughened it out.

So essentially it isn't the rules that make grittiness in my games, it is the world and its environment and how you play out this world.

I really don't think actual deadliness makes a setting gritty, it is the feeling that it CAN be deadly that does.

I guess my grit is more Pulp meets Noir. Then Warhammer Grit.
 

Will

First Post
Low magic appeals to me, and I'm curious to see how that will work. Also, the 'tier' thing means I can stick to whatever-the-hell-ter 1-10 is.

One thing that might be interesting is only allowing spell classes as Cross-trained options, not full classes. But we'll have to see how the rules work in detail first.
 

Cadfan

First Post
Henry said:
And heroic means player characters killing men by the hundreds, consuming the English with fireballs from their eyes & bolts of lightning from their arses. :D
Had you mentioned anime, your sarcasm would have worked.

I have to go with Doug McCrae. If I hear a DM describe their game as "gritty," I tend to expect that they have communicated to me nothing about their actual game, and an awful lot about their self image.

The only phrase less communicative than "my game is gritty" is "I want a game that honors the longstanding traditions of D&D." Tells you nothing about the game. Tells you SO MUCH about the speaker.
 


Fallen Seraph

First Post
See that annoys me when people think grittiness means a pin-prick should kill you, and players can't do anything neat.

Grittiness is a setting, just like if you called it sci-fi, steampunk, FR, it is a feeling and a appearance, a atmosphere that makes a setting gritty not mechanics or dying all the time.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Fallen Seraph said:
Grittiness is a setting, just like if you called it sci-fi, steampunk, FR, it is a feeling and a appearance, a atmosphere that makes a setting gritty not mechanics or dying all the time.
To me, grittiness means realism, in the sense of how closely the game models the real (or historical) world. Magic is not gritty. The more magic there is, the less gritty the setting becomes. Particularly D&D-style flashbang magic.

Difficulties usually arise due to differing perceptions of what constitutes reality. For example, should a 100ft fall always be deadly?

I think the rules have a big part to play. If they let PCs bounce bullets off their naked chests, through accident or design, then goodbye gritty. And hello superhero, yay!
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
Cadfan said:
The only phrase less communicative than "my game is gritty" is "I want a game that honors the longstanding traditions of D&D." Tells you nothing about the game. Tells you SO MUCH about the speaker.

So to be clear: 3:10 to Yuma or Raiders of the Lost Ark as compared to 300 tells you nothing about the qualifications I consider for a gritty game versus a very heroic one? At worst, a person hasn't seen the movies in question and watching it would convey it pretty quickly; at best, it conveys in an instant what kind of flashiness characters have in one, and the others don't.

By contrast, what does "anime" convey? Heroic? Cinematic? Over-the-top? How would one go describing movies like 300 if not "heroic" or "cinematic"?

Doug McCrae said:
Difficulties usually arise due to differing perceptions of what constitutes reality. For example, should a 100ft fall always be deadly?

I think the rules have a big part to play. If they let PCs bounce bullets off their naked chests, through accident or design, then goodbye gritty. And hello superhero, yay!

100ft fall? Almost always, yes.... But I'd be fine with throwing a little cinematic in there if there were awnings, or if it ended in water, etc. -- and even then damage would be involved.

And I'll second the "rules play a big part", of course. A rule that says that you heal to full by eating a can of spinach won't work for any game except Popeye the RPG. And bullet-proof skin is definitely a "heroic" one at the least. One disappointment I do have is that prior to now, I could have played a "zero to hero" game with D&D with any prior ruleset (otherwise, why would people be so upset by 1st level characters being so easily killed?) But now, it's looking like the only thing that will kill a level 1 character is EXTREME unluckiness. (Take 20+ damage, be out of healing surges, have no cleric nearby AND fail three saves? Wow, what odds!)
 
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Fallen Seraph

First Post
While I agree such extreme rules do play a part. I think people depend too much on the rules to make a gritty setting.

For instance you talked about flash-bang magic well, in my world for example. A fireball is described visually:

"the thaumaturge (wizard) let loose a wave of energy, this invisible wave rippled the world around it like a mirage, everything it touched along its path burst into blue flames before turning to ash. As it reached the orc, the orc yelled out as its skin slowly peeled back and burst into blue flame before the body crumpled to ash."

I believe descriptions like this, while maybe not as "gritty" as a real-life medieval game, can give the illusion of grit.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
I still like my term "sludgepunk". It beautifully communicates my intentions, opinion and evaluation of the thing in question in two syllables.
 

Zulgyan

First Post
Cyronax said:
And the players revolt, as they always do when the game is made too lethal.

Too bad. Good idea.

Edit: Dispel criticism. I meant that i liked the idea, but players wouldn't allow it to be implemented.

Me and my friends would totally play in a game like that.

We also like it gritty like the OP.
 


Pale Jackal

First Post
I certainly agree with the notion that setting is an important part of gritty... as can be exemplified by the fact I love "gritty" but I think PCs should die rarely, and if they do, it should be in a plot significant manner.

Another example of "gritty": it's when your PCs run from a [big] mob of guards and townsfolk, as opposed to fireballing them (or cutting them down... heh, I really like the Kobold Skirmishers mob ability.)
 
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ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
brehobit said:
OK,
So I've largely run "gritty" games. And while 3.x wasn't the best for that type of game, it could be made to work, mainly by running lower-level games. I'm thinking 4e won't work for this at all. Low-level play isn't "that" low-level, lots of blasting, etc. Makes me sad.

That said, 4e looks like a great game. Just not the type of role-playing I generally prefer. I've got the first 3 books on pre-order and look forward to reading them and playing some. But I very much doubt it will be my game of choice....

Mark

Well, consider this: wizards now need to be level 16 to cast fly. If you run a "heroic" tier 4e game, you'll never have to worry about armies being nuked from orbit. Same with a lot of other spells, it would seem: no resurrection at heroic tier (except by DM fiat), no long-range teleportation, etc.

Personally, I don't think any of the martial powers we've seen are really "over the top." A fighter can shield-bash his enemies out of the way, a rogue can twist his knife so they bleed out, and a ranger can do a quick retreat-riposte thing. The most "egregious" martial power seems to be the ranger Split the Tree ability, which is basically Multishot.

If you want to make things "gritty," I'd say come up with some new flavor for the Eladrin teleport (or just plain replace it) and you're golden.
 

Fallen Seraph

First Post
One thing I am toying with Eladrin teleport is since you are travelling through the Feywild, what if the Feywild is more dangerous you have no clue what you may find yourself facing when you enter the Feywild.
 


Doug McCrae

Legend
Fallen Seraph said:
"the thaumaturge (wizard) let loose a wave of energy, this invisible wave rippled the world around it like a mirage, everything it touched along its path burst into blue flames before turning to ash. As it reached the orc, the orc yelled out as its skin slowly peeled back and burst into blue flame before the body crumpled to ash."
Grim, but not gritty.
 

Fallen Seraph

First Post
Yeah but in a world where spells are like that, you have to have serious grit to go adventuring.

The fact that the world is that hostile, and the things in that deadly and mean, and still players go out adventuring creates a gritty atmosphere in my eyes.
 

Pale Jackal

First Post
Fallen Seraph said:
One thing I am toying with Eladrin teleport is since you are travelling through the Feywild, what if the Feywild is more dangerous you have no clue what you may find yourself facing when you enter the Feywild.

I like this... reminds me of the Eldar Warp Spiders from WH40K (only played the computer game, but loved the crazy flavor of the universe.)
 

Cyronax

Explorer
Zulgyan said:
Me and my friends would totally play in a game like that.

We also like it gritty like the OP.

I wish I had players like that.

Mine would revolt if I didn't follow within 10-30% of the 3.5 wealth guidelines.

Yes, I'm the DM. Yes, its 'my' game. No, I don't like playing alone.

C.I.D.
 

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