Grognard's First Take On 4e

[DeusExMachina]

This times 2 even...

I love the tactics that are possible even at 1st level...

 

[ExploderWizard]

Sorry, I built up quite a load of snark while playing and needed a release. aahhhh...

Yes, that was my point exactly. We were told that 4e would be more heroic and 1st level characters would be kicking butt right from the word go. In 3rd edition, if I was playing a first level fighter built along the same lines as the one in the preview mod (16 str, two-handed wpn, cleave, power attack) and was in a fight with a group of weak monsters (kobolds, goblins, etc.) and it lasted 5 rounds, I could reasonably expect to kill around 2-3 monsters - given average rolls. In a 4e fight I would probably only kill 1 in the same time frame.

Cleave was a lot more fun when there was a significant chance to actually kill something with it. The same with tripping. In 3e, getting knocked prone was really dangerous. In 4e, it's a minor inconvenience. And we noticed real quick, that the sleep spell is so nerfed now that we'll probably never use it again.

At low levels, combat was not faster. I'm sure it probably is faster at high levels, but you probably won't see any difference in round speed compared to 3e until you're up around 7th level. Combat at 1st level seemed slow, slow, slow compared to 3e mainly because it took so much longer to kill our opponents than it would have in 3e. Is 3e combat riskier? Sure it is, but it also seemed a lot more interesting to me. YMMV and all that.

What you experienced seems to be the designed intent. The numbers got larger on all sides to stretch the combat out over more rounds. While this model does allow combatants more time to use various abilities, the thrill of putting things down in one shot gets lost. Yes you can do that to minions but how good can you feel about your accomplishment of putting down a minion? Ok so I killed a minion in one hit from my mighty axe, the wizard did the same thing with with a ST 10 punch. Intentionally expanding combat length by numbers bloat is probably going to feel more like a boxing match going a set number of rounds than a deadly encounter.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Well, I think Wulf had some good points about the fact people can like 4e with little information and be praised for that opinion while those that don't like it can be seen as "closed minded".

There's fear on both sides of being the minority.

If 4e succeeds in getting the majority of the player base, then the fans of the older editions feel isolated and in the minority.

However, if 4e is rejected by the core and either fails or even has a significantly lower adoption rate, then people who are hoping 4e will have the majority will feel threatened and they might be in the "isolated minority", if their dreams for a new D&D game will be soured by this. Maybe that's why there's some shouting down of legitimate 4e criticisms and concerns.

So I think he has a very good point.

 

[Ginnel]

What you experienced seems to be the designed intent. The numbers got larger on all sides to stretch the combat out over more rounds. While this model does allow combatants more time to use various abilities, the thrill of putting things down in one shot gets lost. Yes you can do that to minions but how good can you feel about your accomplishment of putting down a minion? Ok so I killed a minion in one hit from my mighty axe, the wizard did the same thing with with a ST 10 punch. Intentionally expanding combat length by numbers bloat is probably going to feel more like a boxing match going a set number of rounds than a deadly encounter.

The fighter with stupidly high strength, cleave and power attack clearing an encounter by himself was not fun or thrilling and then having to put the hps up of everything else to counter this then made it impossible for other classes to one shot.

The fact that any class can defeat enemies with their attacks is great, I mean surely the point of attacks is to like kill/incapacitate, a wizard using a str 10 punch knocking someone out with a lucky blow fair enough but he's more likely going to be using bolts of magical energy.

 

[AllisterH]

The funny thing is, I've always seen the high lethality of 3E D&D as taking cues from Type I in M:TG.

In Type 1, depending on the era, the winner of a duel literally came down to who won the coin flip to start the match. Which to me was part of my lack of enthusaism for mid to high level D&D.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Sorry, I built up quite a load of snark while playing and needed a release. aahhhh...

Yes, that was my point exactly. We were told that 4e would be more heroic and 1st level characters would be kicking butt right from the word go. In 3rd edition, if I was playing a first level fighter built along the same lines as the one in the preview mod (16 str, two-handed wpn, cleave, power attack) and was in a fight with a group of weak monsters (kobolds, goblins, etc.) and it lasted 5 rounds, I could reasonably expect to kill around 2-3 monsters - given average rolls. In a 4e fight I would probably only kill 1 in the same time frame.

Cleave was a lot more fun when there was a significant chance to actually kill something with it. The same with tripping. In 3e, getting knocked prone was really dangerous. In 4e, it's a minor inconvenience. And we noticed real quick, that the sleep spell is so nerfed now that we'll probably never use it again.

At low levels, combat was not faster. I'm sure it probably is faster at high levels, but you probably won't see any difference in round speed compared to 3e until you're up around 7th level. Combat at 1st level seemed slow, slow, slow compared to 3e mainly because it took so much longer to kill our opponents than it would have in 3e. Is 3e combat riskier? Sure it is, but it also seemed a lot more interesting to me. YMMV and all that.

Just a note from recent 3.5 experience.

It may speak more of the power creep of splat books, and considering it involves the Book of Nine Swords [which had some 4e concepts in it] then it might not be completely appropriate.

But, through a straight point buy, starting at level 4, I'm playing an Orc, with 22 STR and 4 levels of Crusader. So, there the party tank is swinging around a greatsword +1, getting +11 to hit and dealing 2d6 + 10. That's before his delayed damage pool allows him to get an extra couple points to attack and damage. And through the Stone Power feat, plus his maneuvers, he can effectively keep himself standing in addition to healing other party members, or add another pair of d6's to his damage, etc.

The character is fun, and he can mow down the baddies. It has essentially reached the point where the DM basically has to find ways to take the Orc out of the fight to make it challenging [or course, it helps that I roll horribly]. Of course, even the trog stench proved to be ineffectual. Sitting behind my Tower Shield and Full plate, I was able to wait several in game minutes worth of turns until I was able to fight again ...

So, we get to fight monsters burrowing through the earth and incoporeal creatures, and other things that require miss chances, or that can at least run away every other turn. Of course, this doesn't help out the rouge/swashbuckler much as he doesn't really have much to help him except some better saves [well, and he actually has skills]. The cleric and the wizard can get more involved against the harder to stop creatures. Still, comparing the characters of the same level, their combat capabilities are so different that either it's a cakewalk or a potential TPK.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The fighter with stupidly high strength, cleave and power attack clearing an encounter by himself was not fun or thrilling and then having to put the hps up of everything else to counter this then made it impossible for other classes to one shot.

The fact that any class can defeat enemies with their attacks is great, I mean surely the point of attacks is to like kill/incapacitate, a wizard using a str 10 punch knocking someone out with a lucky blow fair enough but he's more likely going to be using bolts of magical energy.

Its not about the fighter dominating combat. Other classes could easily drop a kobold with an average hit (from a d8 weapon) or a good hit (from a weaker weapon). Other classes could still one shot these guys. The thing is, now nobody can defeat enemies quickly including the fighter. Every (non minion) combatant is designed to last several rounds no matter what, which can (at times) make the heroes feel less effective than ever before. It sometimes feels great to drop all your enemies in a round or two. Having to send out clay pigeons (minions) to get this effect is kind of unfun.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Its not about the fighter dominating combat. Other classes could easily drop a kobold with an average hit (from a d8 weapon) or a good hit (from a weaker weapon). Other classes could still one shot these guys. The thing is, now nobody can defeat enemies quickly including the fighter. Every (non minion) combatant is designed to last several rounds no matter what, which can (at times) make the heroes feel less effective than ever before. It sometimes feels great to drop all your enemies in a round or two. Having to send out clay pigeons (minions) to get this effect is kind of unfun.

I think more it's like you should use Minions in most encounters, so that the PCs have something to cut down while they harass the nasty foes.

Maybe Minions are needed more in 4E then they were needed in 3E - 3E combats typically took 1-5 rounds, and you could sometimes take down a single enemy in 1-2 rounds.
Though a single round in 4E will probably feel shorter (especially at high levels when comparing to 3E), since there are no iterative attacks and similar effects. (Well, we'll see how true this holds in the end...), so this might reduce the need for "quick dispatches".

I can see the possibility of 4E fights feeling more mentally exhausting since you're always on the edge - you hit your foes, but he doesn't fall. Minions and the Bloodied state will be important to keep the feeling of a non-static battle.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Its not about the fighter dominating combat. Other classes could easily drop a kobold with an average hit (from a d8 weapon) or a good hit (from a weaker weapon). Other classes could still one shot these guys. The thing is, now nobody can defeat enemies quickly including the fighter.

Of course, the fighter in 4e is very different from the fighter in 3e/3.5. He's not supposed to be the one doing the most damage in each attack ... he's supposed to be the one with the best AC, the most hit points, the one that keeps an opposing character locked down so that the rogue, or the ranger, or the warlock can do the most damage. One of the strikers is more likely to take out a single character quickly ... that is their job. It's not a fighter's job to do that anymore ... so that changes things a bit.

Every (non minion) combatant is designed to last several rounds no matter what, which can (at times) make the heroes feel less effective than ever before. It sometimes feels great to drop all your enemies in a round or two. Having to send out clay pigeons (minions) to get this effect is kind of unfun.

It does sometimes feel great to wipe out your enemies quickly. However, while a minion is guaranteed to go down in one hit ... they aren't as puny as a character "guaranteed to go down in one hit" in 3.5

Sure, those kobolds could be easily plowed over by most of the party ... but they also need to pretty much get a critical threat to hit certain members of the party. If the choice is a legitimate threat, that will be killed by any hit vs. something that barely threatens you, but only dies when hit with 5 or more damage ... It's not much of a comparison. Minions are more than just popcorn to make players feel "cool", they are expendable, but they can actually hit, and not automatically get hit when put against appropriate levels of PCs.

I've had enough 3.5 encounters that last only 2 or 3 rounds that I'm looking forward to longer rounds where everyone gets a chance to participate.

 

[vagabundo]

I think it comes down to:

Some people like to swing and others don't...