Grognard's First Take On 4e

[HeavenShallBurn]

Wow, it's much worse than I could ever believe and extremely unappealing to a 3.5e grognard. I was open-minded, truly, and still need to read it more carefully, but if you're in the "I'm going to play 3.5e forever" camp, the real thing is not going to change your mind. It's just what we've been predicting and more.

You're not the only one. Personally I think if you got rid of the name and did a "blind test" session a lot of people even those who are in favor of 4e wouldn't know it was D&D. The changes are just that big. It feels more like GURPS without the points mixed with M:TG and I've never been able to like either.

 

[Cadfan]

You are allowed to be convinced that 4e will be awesome, even though you haven't seen it. This is not close-minded.

You are not allowed to be convinced that 4e will suck, even though you haven't seen it. This is close-minded.

Well... yes.

Person A: I hate Wulf Ratbane. I haven't met him in person, but I'm certain he's ugly and smells funny. Anyone who says otherwise is a chump.
Person B: I like Wulf Ratbane. I don't know much about him, but I'm sure he's a very nice person. Anyone who says otherwise is just being mean.

 

[Alynnalizza]

But how can you have that opinion? You haven't seen "4e" yet, only the preview adventure. That's like judging a movie from a teaser trailer.

And haven't we all at one time or another saw a trailer and went....

a. "That looks like crap, not watching that",
b. "Wow that looks good, I need to see that'.

Both are logical opinions from a 20 second clip.

One can form that same opinion from reading any of the 'preview books/adventures'.

Either answer is acceptable .

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

You are allowed to be convinced that 4e will be awesome, even though you haven't seen it. This is optimistic.

You are not allowed to be convinced that 4e will suck, even though you haven't seen it. This is pessimistic.

That presumes a value judgment on 4e.

It is not pessimistic for a 3e player to be optimistic that he has chosen to stay with the better system for himself and his group.

 

[AllisterH]

That presumes a value judgment on 4e.

It is not pessimistic for a 3e player to be optimistic that he has chosen to stay with the better system for himself and his group.

True.

That said, one of his criticisms I don't think is a valid criticsim of 4E. That would be the encounter format. Isn't this the vastly preferred format we were using in the latter half of 3.5?

 

[Fifth Element]

My only comment (having skipped much of the thread) is that of course new rules are going to be difficult to grasp at first, especially if you've never actually played the game. I'm sure that a 2E player reading 3E quickstart rules, without having actually played 3E, would say "You call this streamlined? How is this better?"

You'll never get a good feel for the rules unless you actually play with them. Of course 3E rules would seem more streamlined and easier to get - we've been using them for 8 years and they're second nature to many of us. Judging the 4E rules based only on a read-through of the quickstart rules is unfair.

 

[malraux]

KotS is more equivalent to a pilot for a tv series than a teaser/trailer. I'd say its reasonable to assess a show based on its pilot, but recognize that the pilot might not represent what the show is like.

 

[vagabundo]

Completely agree, but that's not always feasible.

If he wants to run the game, I think he can do so with KotS and get a good approximation. Then he can check out the Core books and maybe he'll see some new rules and things that he couldn't experience in Shadowfell.

Not everyone has $90 to spend on the core. Some just may not want to.

True, of course. I did mean give the adventure a run, you would get a good grasp of how the full game would feel, I think.

Clearing up of the action sequence and adding the minor and immediate in by default really makes a difference in my opinion. I didnt get that from just reading the DNDXP rules until I actually seen it in play.

And monsters; much more fun for me to run. Overall I'd say my DMing fun has increased by 100-200%!!

 

[Steely Dan]

mixed with M:TG

Ah, an actually well designed game – it would behove 4th Ed to take a tip or two from Magic: The Money Sink.

 

[Fifth Element]

And haven't we all at one time or another saw a trailer and went....

a. "That looks like crap, not watching that",
b. "Wow that looks good, I need to see that'.

Both are logical opinions from a 20 second clip.

One can form that same opinion from reading any of the 'preview books/adventures'.

Either answer is acceptable .

Yes, but the real question is, how many times have you said "that looks like crap", only to wind up watching the movie for some reason and finding it's actually pretty good, or even great? It happens.

Conversely, many movies I've thought looked great turned out to be crap. The point is, judging anything based only on a sliver of it leads to bad judgments at times.