D&D (2024) Group Checks?

[Charlaquin]

Yes. That is actually correct. So probably the spell should spell out that you can't be perceived without using special senses...

The old invosible conditon did state that. So now that the condition should not have this line anymore, the spell needs to spell it out.

This is what I’ve been saying…

 

[UngeheuerLich]

When it ends isn’t at issue. We agree that the invisible condition from the hide action ends more easily than the condition from the invisibility spell does. The question is what the condition actually does while you have it. Since neither source of the condition specifies additional caveats to what the condition does (the spell doesn’t say you become translucent and the action doesn’t say you remain opaque) we must assume that your level of opacity is the same in both cases.

I disagree that we must do so. Other than that I agree.

 

[Voadam]

When it ends isn’t at issue. We agree that the invisible condition from the hide action ends more easily than the condition from the invisibility spell does. The question is what the condition actually does while you have it. Since neither source of the condition specifies additional caveats to what the condition does (the spell doesn’t say you become translucent and the action doesn’t say you remain opaque) we must assume that your level of opacity is the same in both cases.

I don't think we need to assume that hiding and invisibility spell provide the same level of opacity to the target.

Not being seen can happen a number of different ways.

I am assuming the invisible condition covers a number of narrative different ways of not being seen.

 

[Charlaquin]

I disagree that we must do so. Other than that I agree.

Let me rephrase. The text gives us no indication that we should do otherwise. Obviously we can do whatever we want, but RAW is of no help here.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Let me rephrase. The text gives us no indication that we should do otherwise. Obviously we can do whatever we want, but RAW is of no help here.

I agree with that. But it is also not saying what we need to assume.

It is just neutral on that. And thus not helpful.

 

[prabe]

How does it go downhill from there when your scenario of -1 to the check and starting in heavy armor was the bottom of the hill to start?

I pointed out that removing the armor increased the chance of success for that character. 75% chance to fail a DC 15 check becomes 94% chance to fail with disadvantage. Taking off the armor might still have a solid chance to fail but it's still considerably better and more likely to succeed.

More than half the classes have access to Enhance Ability and there are other sources of advantage. Advantage changes that 75% chance to fail down to 56% chance to fail. That's much better than 94% chance to fail the check.

They can obviously still fail the check but this is true for other characters too. The only difference is the likelihood of that failure.

A character with a +3 bonus from either proficiency or DEX still fails DC 15 55% of the time. A character with +6 bonus fails DC 15 40% of the time.

By taking off the armor and giving the weaker link regarding advantage that weaker link has a similar chance to many characters, and a better chance than most who don't take stealth proficiency.

If the character or party wants to be better at stealth that requires more focus, but it's not hard to bring that -1 character in heavy armor up to the rest of the typical party. It only take changing armor and an easily available buff.

Blah blah blah. Their odds of success are crap without magical help, and they're giving up most of their survivability in the event of combat--which, if you're calling for individual rolls, is inevitable. The new stealth "rules" are among the myriad reasons I'm not changing my home games over.

 

[Ashrym]

Blah blah blah. Their odds of success are crap without magical help, and they're giving up most of their survivability in the event of combat--which, if you're calling for individual rolls, is inevitable. The new stealth "rules" are among the myriad reasons I'm not changing my home games over.

"Oh noes! My PC I made who can't sneak still can't sneak! But he can with help so Imma not playing!" ;-)

No one requires you to change your game over, lol.

The character doesn't need magical help. Heroic Inspiration, Bardic Inspiration, or Tactical Mind are also possible bonuses. The only thing the character needs is help.

Which makes sense. "But they need help" is just moving the goalpost.

If someone makes a character who cannot sneak, then the party runs into a stealth scenario, then those are options in how to approach it. Even the -1 heavy armor character can use stealth with party support even though they didn't build for it themself.

 

[prabe]

"Oh noes! My PC I made who can't sneak still can't sneak! But he can with help so Imma not playing!" ;-)

No one requires you to change your game over, lol.

The character doesn't need magical help. Heroic Inspiration, Bardic Inspiration, or Tactical Mind are also possible bonuses. The only thing the character needs is help.

Which makes sense. "But they need help" is just moving the goalpost.

If someone makes a character who cannot sneak, then the party runs into a stealth scenario, then those are options in how to approach it. Even the -1 heavy armor character can use stealth with party support even though they didn't build for it themself.

I'm just open to the idea maybe they should be able to do things without using magic. You know, because martials are as good as casters at stuff. And of your three suggestions for help, two seem unapt for a check that might cover hours of moving stealthily.

Different tables will operate differently, and that's a good thing.

 

[Ashrym]

Hide [Action]​

With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.

On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.

I have a very straight-forward way of interpreting this. The check requires a minimum 15 to hide (become "invisible") and is also the DC for perception against how well the PC is hidden.

Leaving obscurement or cover places the character into line of sight and breaks the condition. They're only "invisible" while maintaining the conditions needed to hide.

For example, the rogue sees the light of torches or hears voices approaching. They crawl under a desk and curl up to hide, keeping silent until the lights and voices leave. The character has +7 to the roll and rolls a 4, but being a rogue treats it as a 10 for a total of 17. Rogues are awesome at this. No one is searching for them and passive perception isn't good enough in most cases.

I don't see this as complicated. Leaving obscurement or cover placing the character in line of sight breaks the "invisible" condition. The wording is awkward, though.

Heavily Obscured​

You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space.

And if someone is trying to find the character using heavy obscurement then blindness works in that direction whether the stealth check to hide is successful or not.

Blinded [Condition]​

While you have the Blinded condition, you experience the following effects.
Can’t See. You can’t see and automatically fail any ability check that requires sight.
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Advantage, and your attack rolls have Disadvantage.

So a paladin in the warlocks's Darkness spell who rolls high might hide. If they fail someone might hurl a javelin at him with disadvantage.

Cover​

Cover provides a degree of protection to a target behind it. There are three degrees of cover, each of which provides a different benefit to a target: Half Cover (+2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws), Three-Quarters Cover (+5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws), and Total Cover (can’t be targeted directly). If behind more than one degree of cover, a target benefits only from the most protective degree.

Similarly, a character using cover to hide gains the benefits of that cover whether or not the stealth check succeeds. Trying to hide and failing still carries that advantage.

Help [Action]​

'''
Assist an Ability Check. Choose one of your skill or tool proficiencies and one ally who is near enough for you to assist verbally or physically when they make an ability check. That ally has Advantage on the next ability check they make with the chosen skill or tool. This benefit expires if the ally doesn’t use it before the start of your next turn. The DM has final say on whether your assistance is possible.

This is still an option.

The rogue might drape a dark blanket over the paladin to hide some shiny metal armor and dull sounds a bit while keeping close and showing where to step. Describe how to help and see if the DM grants advantage.

Invisible [Condition]​

While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.

The "invisibilty" from hiding or the spell grants these features. The rogue in my example above would have advantage on initiative if they attacked, and may or may not maintain the benefits of cover depending on how they attacked.

Different features that grant the invisible condition end that condition under different circumstances.

Group Checks​

Group checks are a tool you can use when the party is trying to accomplish something together and the most skilled characters can cover for characters who are less adept at the task. To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails.

Group checks aren’t appropriate when one character’s failure would spell disaster for the whole party, such as if the characters are creeping across a castle courtyard while trying not to alert the guards. In that case, one noisy character will draw the guards’ attention, and there’s not much that stealthier characters can do about it, so relying on individual checks makes more sense. Similarly, don’t use a group check when a single successful check is sufficient, as is the case when finding a hidden compartment with a Wisdom (Perception) check.

I think some of you might be conflating stealth checks with the hide action having read that example from the DMG. The party moving across the castle courtyard aren't using the hide action. They're moving quietly while the guard's attention is elsewhere.

That doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the group cannot try to muffle noise somehow while taking the hide action. The halfling rogue could snuggle up to the paladin and help keep him still. Describe it for the DM and see how the DM chooses to handle it.

Just because that particular example said they wouldn't use a group check doesn't mean never use a group check.

That's my perspective anyway. Hope it helps.

 

[Ashrym]

I'm just open to the idea maybe they should be able to do things without using magic. You know, because martials are as good as casters at stuff. And of your three suggestions for help, two seem unapt for a check that might cover hours of moving stealthily.

Different tables will operate differently, and that's a good thing.

They can do stealth without using magic. You chose in your build not to.

As for your further moving goalpost, wear lighter armor longer? There's no duration on that. ;-)

Enhance Ability lasts a hour per casting. There are more options but the duration on a buff like that one is long and it can be cast again.

Although you could go with plan B making a DEX based battlemaster who has stealth proficiency and uses the tactical mind feature and ambush maneuver. Building a character who isn't good at stealth is your choice, but in doing so complaining about not being good at stealth makes little sense.