D&D (2024) Group Checks?

[Charlaquin]

No. The spell effect does NOT stop when you get in line of sight of someone or someone hears you.

When the effects of the spell end is not the issue. I agree with you that the effects of the spell don’t end when an enemy finds you. The problem is that neither the text of the spell nor the effects of the condition actually state that you can’t be seen. We could infer that “you’re invisible, of course you can’t be seen,” but then that same logic must apply to the hide action. Yes, the hide action provides a unique way for the condition granted by it to end - when an enemy finds you. But, if you can’t be seen, then looking at you is not by itself sufficient to find you.

 

[Retros_x]

The problem is that neither the text of the spell nor the effects of the condition actually state that you can’t be seen.

The condition does state though that you are concealed, which means you cant be affected by any effects that requires its target to be seen - unless the effects creator can somehow see you. Same for affected attacks. So you can't be seen, its in the condition text, just formulated in gameplay terms.

Because the hiding action has this additional requirement, I argue that this requirement is what triggers the "unless the creator of an effect or attack can somehow see you". But when you have the condition from the spell, you can't be targeted by effects that needs you to be seen. Unless someone has blind sight or smth. similar.

Everything to interpret the rules RAI is written down there - just stupidly convoluted. The RAI is completely unchanged to 2014 if I am not missing something, but they managed to make the phrasing even more confusing than 2014 where the whole hiding topic already spawned a new r/DMAcademy thread every week.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sure, you can use the rules if you just assume they’re supposed to work in a way that makes sense and run them accordingly. But that’s not a defense of the way they’re written. The actual RAW very plainly implies that either the Hide action makes you impossible to find by sight alone, or the Invisibility spell does not. This doesn’t prevent a competent DM from recognizing that this probably wasn’t intended, and running stealth according to their intuition instead of according to RAW. But it’s a definite fault in RAW that such a ruling is necessary. It would have been easy to write the rule in a way that actually functioned the way they obviously intended it to.

As I already mentioned: stating that you are translucent in the spell description had helped.
Also a reminder that you need to try and stay unfound for you to stay invisible would not have been wasted words. Or a DM determines if someone notices you at the end of your turn of you are not concealed or behind cover.

I do reject your assessment that it is RAW that the hide action and the invisibility spell works similar. They have different conditions when the invisible condition ends. The spell does not say that you stop benefitting from the invisible condition* anymore when you are found.

So even if you deduce the location of someone who benefits from the invisibility spell with sight (leaving trails, carrying a light source, leaving a hole in an otherwise foggy area, detect magic?), they still benefit from the invisible condition. Actually since the spell does not even say you are translucent, we don't know how it works. Maybe the eyes actually perceive the enemy. But it makes people immediately forget the invisible person is there. (let me look up if it is an illusion or a transmutation spell... school of illusion).

If yoi deduce the location of someone benefitting from the invisible condition by hiding, being visibly in front of you ends the condition.

*also here is the rules thext for invisible:
While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.

Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.

Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.

Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.

Nothing in it says RAW, that you can't actually be seen. You are just concealed. And if someone can somehow see you (in the hide case, by looking at you if you don't try not to be seen) the condition bears no benefit.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Absolutely wild to me to ban a whole category of armor just so the party don't have to adjust their plans. Leave your plate at home or let the stealthy character do the scouting, if you want to have a more "realistic" approach. If you just want to have the marvel gang doing a little cinematic sneak, just do a group check and the sneaky characters can carry the heavy armored ones (although it denies the cost of getting a huge AC bonus).

Again: leave your plate at home is a -8 to AC, ie going from an 18 to a ten, which at low levels means enemies will hit you twice as often. It’s not annoying; it’s crippling as being on the frontline is now just asking to get dropped.

And even if you do, you now have to make DC 15 stealth checks with a +0 or so, so that’s a 30% success rate, and if you fail even one, the whole party is discovered - remember that in 2024 rule stealth is specifically excluded from group checks so RAW you must personally make all of them.

If there are three guard posts, there’s only a 2.7% chance of avoiding combat. Would you take a -8 penalty to AC for a less than 3% chance of avoid a fight?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Nothing in it says RAW, that you can't actually be seen. You are just concealed. And if someone can somehow see you (in the hide case, by looking at you if you don't try not to be seen) the condition bears no benefit.

Yes, by RAW second and third bullet points actually do nothing. Nothing says you cannot be seen by normal vision, so everyone can "somehow see you" just fine like you wouldn't have the condition.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes, by RAW second and third bullet points actually do nothing. Nothing says you cannot be seen by normal vision, so everyone can "somehow see you" just fine like you wouldn't have the condition.

Yes. That is actually correct. So probably the spell should spell out that you can't be perceived without using special senses...

The old invisible conditon did state that. So now that the condition should not have this line anymore, the spell needs to spell it out.

 

[Retros_x]

Again: leave your plate at home is a -8 to AC, ie going from an 18 to a ten, which at low levels means enemies will hit you twice as often. It’s not annoying; it’s crippling as being on the frontline is now just asking to get dropped.

And even if you do, you now have to make DC 15 stealth checks with a +0 or so, so that’s a 30% success rate, and if you fail even one, the whole party is discovered - remember that in 2024 rule stealth is specifically excluded from group checks so RAW you must personally make all of them.

If there are three guard posts, there’s only a 2.7% chance of avoiding combat. Would you take a -8 penalty to AC for a less than 3% chance of avoid a fight?

Leaving the plate at home doesn't mean going butt naked. Also again, if the tanky player doesn't feel good with that AC drop - then they don't sneak! Let them stay behind second rank while the stealthy ones are scouting or preparing an ambush.

I don't understand what you are arguing even at the moment, what do you want? Complain about the 2024 rules? Thats how they are now.

Btw your percentages are off. If you succeed in hide, you count as invisible as long as you stay out line of sight, no need to reroll for every guard. Also not the whole party gets discovered - there is no group check as you asserted yourself, so there is no group failure - only the failed character gets spotted.

And even then it doesn't mean combat starts immediately. Guards could come closer to inspect the noise in the bush, to hold the intruder, ask them to identify themselves to check if they have authority, run away to ring an alarm bell or get reinforcement whatever. But this is of course not rules but DM style and running the game. But when you want to support stealth approaches in your game you should consider these.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

When the effects of the spell end is not the issue. I agree with you that the effects of the spell don’t end when an enemy finds you. The problem is that neither the text of the spell nor the effects of the condition actually state that you can’t be seen. We could infer that “you’re invisible, of course you can’t be seen,” but then that same logic must apply to the hide action. Yes, the hide action provides a unique way for the condition granted by it to end - when an enemy finds you. But, if you can’t be seen, then looking at you is not by itself sufficient to find you.

OK. I concede. There seems to be indeed a problem with the spell. It has kept the 2014 wording while the invisible condition got changed. Same for the stunned condition not setting speed to zero. Has some weird implications woth a few spells that need to be updated accordingly.
Actually overall spells are the most disappointing part of 5e. I really expected more balance changes in both directions. And at some point it seems tgat last minute changes somewhere else in the rules made some spells at least unclear.

Polymorph, shape change, CME, invisibility, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, wall of force. Not a fupl list by any means.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The funny thing is that using group checks to help with party Stealth was the example the designers gave when they were talking about group checks way back in the 2014 play test. So 2024 is completely altering the intent.

But that isn't the only place. Sometime someone should make a list of all the design goals/intents from 2014 that have been changed or reversed in 2024. I expect many people didn't notice, but whether you like or want to use them or not, it can have an effect on how your game plays, DM versus player expectations, etc.

 

[Voadam]

Does see invisibility work the same in 24 or has it been updated to accommodate the change in the invisibility condition?

SEE INVISIBILITY
2nd-level divination
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of talc and a small sprinkling of powdered silver)
Duration: 1 hour
For the duration, you see invisible creatures and objects as if they were visible, and you can see into the Ethereal Plane. Ethereal creatures and objects appear ghostly and translucent.

In 14 it would not see hidden creatures, in 24 this writing seems like it would.