Growing PDF awareness

[Krug]

Actually, I wonder if it's not just PDFs that need to be popularised or non-WotC products... On Amazon, Magic of Faerun is ranked at 9.118 and Midnight at 35,221. Maybe the first thing that needs to be done is to raise awareness of d20 publishers and that they produce quality product.

 

[tensen]

Publishers should likewise offer screen versions, in landscape format.

Unfortunately in the case of my products, we design assuming they will be printed. Hence doing a layout of that sort requires the entire product to be redone. A time and cost that can not be recovered through the current PDF sales.

 

[Nellisir]

Unfortunately in the case of my products, we design assuming they will be printed. Hence doing a layout of that sort requires the entire product to be redone. A time and cost that can not be recovered through the current PDF sales.

Then you're going into it knowing that a certain portion of your audience will be at least inconvienced by your formatting.

I buy a fair number of pdfs (I used to buy alot, but the market filled up and my purchases remained the same, so...), and dual-formatting is something I look for. Do I usually print out one copy? Yes. But if I need something onscreen for a game or quick reference, I look for a screen copy I can read without a lot of scrolling.

More later
Nell.

 

[jmucchiello]

Then you're going into it knowing that a certain portion of your audience will be at least inconvienced by your formatting.

I buy a fair number of pdfs (I used to buy alot, but the market filled up and my purchases remained the same, so...), and dual-formatting is something I look for. Do I usually print out one copy? Yes. But if I need something onscreen for a game or quick reference, I look for a screen copy I can read without a lot of scrolling.

I have to agree with tensen (and was going to post a nearly identical message as he did). You complain that the products with two formats don't contain the same info (missing tables, etc.) Well, that because there is no way to format text for two methods of display without duplicating the text. At the point where the duplication occurs any number of messes can occur and every edit becomes a chance for a missed edit in other file. PDFs don't make enough money for me to do layout twice.

Publishers SHOULD offer print versions in portrait format. They should be formatted for two-sided printing, with alternating page numbes and borders.

That's what I do. I use a 9 point font to keep the page count low but still readable. I use colored headers (which print just fine in b&w too) to break up the page (to make up for sparse artwork).

Personally, I don't see what can be done to make better use of the PDF format. I don't see a lot of use in looking up stuff at the gaming table. When I DM, I loathe picking up the PHB to look something up. I'm far more likely to just make a ruling and hope it was close to correct to maintain game flow that to use the book sitting in front of me. I could not imagine reaching for a laptop to look something up. Every second the little hourglass was flashing on the screen would feel like an eternity with 6 pairs of eyes staring at me to describe/rule on something.

I had an article about d20 PDFs published in Dragon/Polyhedron, the print magazine with the second largest distribution in our industry, but I don't think it has had much of an impact.

OMG. I just looked at the sales rankings on RPGNow. Based on what I know, less than 200 sales on the PDF package? That's abysmal. I think the unfornate part there is that the URL for the polyhedron pack was hard to look at and broken over two lines. How many people read magazines in front of the computer? How many people remember to bring the magazine article that sparked a little interest to the computer? How many people are too cheap to even bet $10 on a complete unknown?

I think I'm rambling. I probably should have just replied more than once.

 

[Nellisir]

Well, that because there is no way to format text for two methods of display without duplicating the text. At the point where the duplication occurs any number of messes can occur and every edit becomes a chance for a missed edit in other file.

So the 2nd layout occurs AFTER the manuscript is completed. I don't understand why this is a problem...is there some pdf publisher requirement that the product be hurled out the door within 5 minutes of completion? If that can't be done, then be organized about the corrections. Make a list. Decide on an interval between corrections -- say one week. Every week, sit down and go through your list of corrections, putting a check beside each one as you finish it. Then do the same for the other version.

PDFs don't make enough money for me to do layout twice.

You make money on pdfs?

2 points, I think. 1- You're not doing an entirely new layout. You're revising an existing one. You don't have to recreate any style aspects; they just need to be resituated in the document. 2 - Compared to the amount of time you spent writing and creating the manuscript, is doing a second layout really a significant time drain?

Also, and this is directed to publishers who do a quick, crappy print version, what your product says to consumers is "I'm happy doing a half-assed job." That's an incredibly stupid thing to say.

That's what I do. I use a 9 point font to keep the page count low but still readable. I use colored headers (which print just fine in b&w too) to break up the page (to make up for sparse artwork).

I like what I've seen of your layouts. Straightforward and easy to understand, not complex or heavy. Good text density -- I don't feel like I'm wasting paper.

rant warning...!

I LIKE pdfs. I WANT the pdf market to succeed. But this thread keeps coming up..."how do we make more people like pdfs", and when someone says "try this", it's the same outcry every time..."oh no, that takes TIME". I buy a pdf, and it's got crappy editing, or crappy layout, or isn't very functional...it boils down to the same broad statement. Low quality. Quality MATTERS. Yes, quality takes time. That's always been the deal. Publishers want the quick bang, and they hurl the product out to RPGNow. But unless you're Monte Cook, you're going to get less bang than you spent in bucks no matter what, so take the extra time and do a kickass job on EVERYTHING. Add bookmarks. Add a screen version, or a print version. And for God's sake, DON'T use 12-pnt font!!!

Argh.
Nell.

 

[Nellisir]

OMG. I just looked at the sales rankings on RPGNow. Based on what I know, less than 200 sales on the PDF package? That's abysmal. I think the unfornate part there is that the URL for the polyhedron pack was hard to look at and broken over two lines. How many people read magazines in front of the computer? How many people remember to bring the magazine article that sparked a little interest to the computer? How many people are too cheap to even bet $10 on a complete unknown?

Bad is when I have to be reminded that this deal exists. I know I've got that Polyhedron around somewhere...


Nell.

 

[Flyspeck23]

2 points, I think. 1- You're not doing an entirely new layout. You're revising an existing one. You don't have to recreate any style aspects; they just need to be resituated in the document. 2 - Compared to the amount of time you spent writing and creating the manuscript, is doing a second layout really a significant time drain?

It could very well being a time drain if you're not doing layouts that often (as in: "I've written 7 books, so I've done 7 layouts").
Most people are publishing eBooks, because they love writing new material. Maybe that's the main reason layout, editing and art fall somewhat short sometimes. (IMHO by far the most important aspect of every RPG book, electronic or otherwise, is the content.)

Most people will loose money by making (only) PDFs. The amount of time involved, and the start-up costs are tremendous. So what some people might do is cutting these costs (less time spend on layout, few if any professional software) wherever possible. And who could blame them?

You can't stop the "hobby publishers", and IMHO you shouldn't even try. The only way to establish a standard would be if the customers would honor the effort - if I'd spend an additional X hours doing the layout, the product will likely sell Y times better (similar to: if I'd spend $X more on illustrations, ...)

I will do two layouts for every published layout (Complete Spell Cards being an exception for obvious reasons), but that's because I actually like doing the layout, and I'm pretty fast at it. On the other hand I'm not a big fan of prestige class design, so obviously you'll see less of those in my books. Sure, there'll be some people who'll complain ("Me want PrCs!"), but my answer to these people would be: well, then get a book with lots of prestige classes.
Same goes for layout. If you're looking for a PDF with both on-screen and printer-friendly layout, then by all means buy those.
If these "dual-layout" PDFs should someday sell siginifcantly better than others, I'd say most publishers will do this. Otherwise they won't.

One thing won't happen: "dual-layouts" bringing fresh customers to RPG Now. That's something for "expert customers" only.

To make that clear: I'd say "dual-layout" is a good thing. It's all about making PDFs different (and in a way even superior) to printed books. But you can't demand it (it's like saying: "Great product, Ye Small Publisher, but I won't buy it unless at least half of your illustrations are by Todd Lockwood.")

Note: I've got the flu, so don't judge me too harsh
Hope I made a point anyway...
[Edit: removed the most blatant errors...]

 

[Storminator]

Books sell because they're in stores where the customers are. PDFs aren't, and they don't sell. For the life of me, I can't think of a reasonable way to get a regular game store to sell pdfs.

If you can solve that distribution problem, sales will increase. Otherwise, you're tinkering at the margins.

PS

 

[Flyspeck23]

Books sell because they're in stores where the customers are.

I'm not sure this is a valid point.
What about online shops? As far as I know the sell quite a bit. So that can't be the reason PDF sales ain't higher.

 

[jmucchiello]

Books sell because they're in stores where the customers are. PDFs aren't, and they don't sell. For the life of me, I can't think of a reasonable way to get a regular game store to sell pdfs.

Wow, wish I could have been that coherent. Well done.

The best idea I've heard was terrible (POD in the store), but it made me think of this. Perhaps a well produced promotion book/binder combined with a CD display case could find its way into a store. PDFs on CDs would be a physical object stores could sell. The binder would contain high-gloss single sheet previews/adverts for each CD on the rack. Entry cost is creating the display case. Continuing cost is creating and shipping the CDs and advert pages. The problem (beyond the initial outlay problems/CD pressing/inventory control/etc) is would the store owner be willing to explain to everyone who comes in how the binder/cd rack works? Would he want to maintain putting the sheets in the binder (in a logical order) as well as inventorying the CDs? Would it be safe to include tear outs in the binder for ordering the PDF on your own if the store is out of the CDs?

The other problem is getting all the vendors to share the CD rack/binder. If this split into two different solutions it would have to fail. RPGNow might be in a position to do this. But again, what PDF vendors are going to step up and press CDs for each of their products?