Growing PDF awareness

Flyspeck23 said:
I'm not sure this is a valid point.
What about online shops? As far as I know the sell quite a bit. So that can't be the reason PDF sales ain't higher.
It's not a fair comparison. In both cases (in store and online purchase) there is a BOOK. A physical thing. PDFs are too incorporeal for many to think about buying them. I think the reason the PDF market is largely untapped because we don't have enough mindshare. RPGers are an older population, not as accustomed/acclimated to electronic distribution like kids today. PDF publishing may be an idea ahead of its time today.

Also, online shops benefit from people who see the books in retail stores and purchase them online afterward. There is nothing like that for PDFs.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Nellisir said:
So the 2nd layout occurs AFTER the manuscript is completed. I don't understand why this is a problem...is there some pdf publisher requirement that the product be hurled out the door within 5 minutes of completion? If that can't be done, then be organized about the corrections. Make a list. Decide on an interval between corrections -- say one week. Every week, sit down and go through your list of corrections, putting a check beside each one as you finish it. Then do the same for the other version.

So, take a product that provides less revenue than a print product, and invest in having it laid out twice? We aren't only talking a time drain, but a significant monetary drain on the little income that the PDF market brings in.

I LIKE pdfs. I WANT the pdf market to succeed. But this thread keeps coming up..."how do we make more people like pdfs", and when someone says "try this", it's the same outcry every time..."oh no, that takes TIME". I buy a pdf, and it's got crappy editing, or crappy layout, or isn't very functional...it boils down to the same broad statement. Low quality. Quality MATTERS. Yes, quality takes time. That's always been the deal. Publishers want the quick bang, and they hurl the product out to RPGNow. But unless you're Monte Cook, you're going to get less bang than you spent in bucks no matter what, so take the extra time and do a kickass job on EVERYTHING. Add bookmarks. Add a screen version, or a print version. And for God's sake, DON'T use 12-pnt font!!!

Argh.
Nell.

Agreed. Up to the part on multiple versions.

Although... I *am* working on seeing how much work it will take to do the print version of FCTF-revised. No art, smaller font....
 

jmucchiello said:
Wow, wish I could have been that coherent. Well done.

Thank you sir!

I tire of hearing that the content of pdfs should improve in order to increase sales. Plenty of pdfs have excellent content, yet still sell poorly.

The best idea I've heard was terrible (POD in the store), but it made me think of this. Perhaps a well produced promotion book/binder combined with a CD display case could find its way into a store. PDFs on CDs would be a physical object stores could sell. The binder would contain high-gloss single sheet previews/adverts for each CD on the rack. Entry cost is creating the display case. Continuing cost is creating and shipping the CDs and advert pages. The problem (beyond the initial outlay problems/CD pressing/inventory control/etc) is would the store owner be willing to explain to everyone who comes in how the binder/cd rack works? Would he want to maintain putting the sheets in the binder (in a logical order) as well as inventorying the CDs? Would it be safe to include tear outs in the binder for ordering the PDF on your own if the store is out of the CDs?

The other problem is getting all the vendors to share the CD rack/binder. If this split into two different solutions it would have to fail. RPGNow might be in a position to do this. But again, what PDF vendors are going to step up and press CDs for each of their products?

The only other thing I can think of is selling game stores non-exclusive copyright for a significantly higher sum. If the store owner could sell as many copies of a pdf as he'd like for say, $150, he'd make the effort to get the material out there. That's a sticky wicket, tho, as folks are justifiably protective of thier copyright. Might be worth taking a flyer on if you've got a good pdf that's no longer selling.

PS
 

jmucchiello said:
It's not a fair comparison. In both cases (in store and online purchase) there is a BOOK. A physical thing. PDFs are too incorporeal for many to think about buying them. I think the reason the PDF market is largely untapped because we don't have enough mindshare. RPGers are an older population, not as accustomed/acclimated to electronic distribution like kids today. PDF publishing may be an idea ahead of its time today.

Also, online shops benefit from people who see the books in retail stores and purchase them online afterward. There is nothing like that for PDFs.
Agreed on the mindshare part. The comparison is fair, as this wasn't my point. The purchase is, generally speaking (and not counting online purchase done because of lower prices), very similar - unless, of course, there's a FLGS in your area. As long as the customer didn't have the opportunity to look at the book there ain't a difference in the process of purchase. Of course there's a difference once the book arrived at your home, but that's a "flaw" you can't get rid of - PDFs will always fall short on that regard.

The solution for the "PDF industry growth" IMHO can't be to emulate traditional books as close as possible. The industry should focus on the "superior" aspects of electronic products, and get the (potential) customers aware of these - such as:
a) less expensive than printed books
b) searchable and bookmarked
c) possibility of making "handouts" for your players, be it adventure seeds, prestige classes or whatever
d) versatile thanks to a multitude of publishers (support for any "flavor")
e) many unique products not available in print (be it intentional or because of lack of funds)
f) instant delivery
...

My plan on this regard: printing a few pages (the demo, for instance) added with a short note (things like some of the points above, links, price and such), making as many photocopies as money allows, and taking these to conventions. Would that help? I'm not sure, but I'm willing to try.

It's all about awareness, really. We as publishers could make all the efforts we want (as we should ;) ), but that won't increase the number of customers for the industry, but rather only for the publisher making these efforts (if these are worthwile is another issue...).
 

This has turned into quite an interesting discussion for me. I design my e-zine for PDF, but mainly for on-screen consumption. I know many readers print it out, but I use a 12-pt font and all for it. Primarily because my e-zine is mainly stories. I don't like to cram a ton of text on one page of a story. Plus, I think I still get more words to a page at 12-pt than a standard hard or paperback book does.

But, to be honest, I never considered doing a smaller layout. I guess I wouldn't look forward to the work. It would require a nearly complete redo. But then again, we don't design it with the intent to be printed. Maybe that's our fault. Although I've yet to have any readers complain. Maybe I should poll them to get thoughts on it.

Thanks for bringing it up, everyone!

originally posted by Flyspeck23
(it's like saying: "Great product, Ye Small Publisher, but I won't buy it unless at least half of your illustrations are by Todd Lockwood.")
We're running a Lockwood image for December... :)
 


HellHound said:
So, take a product that provides less revenue than a print product, and invest in having it laid out twice? We aren't only talking a time drain, but a significant monetary drain on the little income that the PDF market brings in.

Disclaimer first. I'm not a professional layout designer. I do my own layouts in Word for campaign handouts, campaign handbooks, and little things that never see the light of day. I've got epublishing dreams, but that's still all they are. I don't know how the big boys do it, or how professionals do it. All I know is what I see, and what I've done.

I'll bring this back around to topic by the end, I promise.

WotC, AEG, FF, Bastion, and just about every other "big boy" out there link product lines through design. Same borders, same background, same font, same everything but content. Doing so creates a visual link between products in the customer's mind, and (assuming they like the initial ones) creates a feeling of familiarity and comfort. Customers comfortable with your product are more likely to buy it. Doing so also spreads the cost (in money, time, or both) of the initial design over as many products as you produce -- at least 2, possibly more. Which makes more sense for the Arsenal line...to create from scratch a unique "look" for each book, or to create a single, identifiable look for the line? Which saves more money? Which goes further to creating a brand image that benefits EN Publishing? Ditto for Joe, if he writes Joe's Book of Divination (which I hope he does, JBoE was GREAT) and considers continuing the series past that (I want Joe's Book of Illusion, personally...).

Within MS Word, I can create styles that identify and control different types of text. The styles control font size, bold, italics, font, whether or not the text is listed in the TOC and index*. I can change -all- the text of a style by changing one portion of it. Headers too small? I highlight one header, increase the font size, and all the other headers in the same style increase. If I want to create a different style for a different product, I open a style box, make the changes I want, and save it under a different name. I can write a product in one format, and in 20 minutes, create a totally different look by switching fonts, font sizes, and underline effects.

Most of this doesn't matter, though. If you're doing the same product, only in portrait and landscape orientation, you want most things to look the same. You want the same font style, the same headers style, and the same borders...except in a b&w line art style, or something like 12% shaded grey, which you hopefully did at the same time you spent a few hours creating the colored version. The l-r borders need to be cut down, and the top & bottom borders need to be stretched, but all you're really doing is altering your initial layout, and once you do it, it'll be good for the rest of your line.

What really takes time is altering the breaks. You need to decide if you want one column (only scroll down, never scroll up to finish a sentence), 2 columns (more traditional), or 3 (closer in width to portrait-oriented double columns, and least likely to screw up tables. You want material that might be printed out by itself (classes, spells, items, feats) to either not cross page breaks, or to cross as few as possible. You might need to drop tables into a text box so they'll cross columns and allow text to flow around them. You'll have to reposition art, assuming you keep it in.

But that is not impossible. It's not even particularly hard. Art and tables will go slower, text will mostly be a matter of clicking along, adding section breaks (Insert:Break:Page Break). And given the value you add to the product, it's my opinion that the time will be repaid.

This topic has gone around and around, and I've come to the conclusion, IMO, that there is no magic bullet. If there was one, Polyhedron would've been it. The only thing better would be to put a CLICKABLE link inside the magazine, and we're just not quite there yet.

The best way, the most reliable way, and very likely the only way to increase pdf awareness is the slow process of converting occasional buyers to frequent buyers, and one-time buyers into repeat customers. And the best way to do that is to increase the quality of pdfs, in ALL aspects, as high as we can, as far as we can, as best we can. Can we reach every and all freshmen publishers? No. But they get their ideas and their inspiration from looking at your work. If we set the bar higher, they'll jump to meet it. And while they're doing that, you'll be simultaneously winning more customers, raising profits, and freeing up more time to do what you really want to do...write.

Phew
Nell.
 

And to throw one more thing into the pot....

I don't buy Mongoose's generic lines because those I've seen, have looked like crap. They weren't all that well written, either, but mostly, they are just unattractive to read.

People buy on how something looks. White space makes them think fluff, dense text makes them think bang for the buck. Appearances do matter.

Crackers matter too, but that tin is just about empty.
Off to bed.
Nell.
 

Some people at least have a preconception that PDFs are 'crap'. I have gone so far as to show a friend of mine my collection of PDFs - the reaction? 'Well those are okay, but most PDFs are crap'! This is from someone who has never otherwise looked at a PDF, except for the ESDs of old TSR producrs. (The scans of which are, I will admit, often crap.)

I also heard this person complain about the amount of space 'wasted' in Dungeon for the article.

I think this preconception has much to do with the lack of success of PDFs.

On the other hand several people went and downloaded some of the World Works terrain after I used mine for a demonstration game.

There are many products that I feel would be better as PDFs - Mongoose's Ultimate Game Designer's book for example, where being able to print up sections would at least double its usefulness to me.
Adventures are another such slot, as are books of forms such as the Campaign Planner. (The most used ESD for me is the Adventure Design Kit.)

The Auld Grump, who didn't buy the bundle because he already owns half of the products showcased in it...
 

Nellisir said:
Within MS Word, I can create styles that identify and control different types of text. The styles control font size, bold, italics, font, whether or not the text is listed in the TOC and index*. I can change -all- the text of a style by changing one portion of it. Headers too small? I highlight one header, increase the font size, and all the other headers in the same style increase. If I want to create a different style for a different product, I open a style box, make the changes I want, and save it under a different name. I can write a product in one format, and in 20 minutes, create a totally different look by switching fonts, font sizes, and underline effects.

Most of this doesn't matter, though. If you're doing the same product, only in portrait and landscape orientation, you want most things to look the same. You want the same font style, the same headers style, and the same borders...except in a b&w line art style, or something like 12% shaded grey, which you hopefully did at the same time you spent a few hours creating the colored version. The l-r borders need to be cut down, and the top & bottom borders need to be stretched, but all you're really doing is altering your initial layout, and once you do it, it'll be good for the rest of your line.

What really takes time is altering the breaks. You need to decide if you want one column (only scroll down, never scroll up to finish a sentence), 2 columns (more traditional), or 3 (closer in width to portrait-oriented double columns, and least likely to screw up tables. You want material that might be printed out by itself (classes, spells, items, feats) to either not cross page breaks, or to cross as few as possible. You might need to drop tables into a text box so they'll cross columns and allow text to flow around them. You'll have to reposition art, assuming you keep it in.

But that is not impossible. It's not even particularly hard. Art and tables will go slower, text will mostly be a matter of clicking along, adding section breaks (Insert:Break:Page Break). And given the value you add to the product, it's my opinion that the time will be repaid.
[...]
The best way, the most reliable way, and very likely the only way to increase pdf awareness is the slow process of converting occasional buyers to frequent buyers, and one-time buyers into repeat customers. And the best way to do that is to increase the quality of pdfs, in ALL aspects, as high as we can, as far as we can, as best we can. Can we reach every and all freshmen publishers? No. But they get their ideas and their inspiration from looking at your work. If we set the bar higher, they'll jump to meet it. And while they're doing that, you'll be simultaneously winning more customers, raising profits, and freeing up more time to do what you really want to do...write.
There's a similar thing in (semi-) professional (non-Word) layout called "master pages" (for general page layout) and "style sheets" (for the different styles of text). But there's one big difference between doing your layout with Word and doing your layout with a layout program: when you throw your text onto the pages and assign the appropriate style sheets, you're far from finished. Trust me on this: designing the master pages and style sheets is not the most time consuming process, but rather it's what you call "altering the breaks". If you really go to town with your layout you'll spend dozens of hours "fine-tuning" the layout. It ain't as simple as "flipping the pages vertically", it's way more work. You've got to start from scratch (but can, of course, use your already finished master pages - these are in fact a one time investment for each product line).
(As I've said before, I'm all for "double layout", but I can fully understand the people who won't do it - for instance, if I had to pay a layout person, I won't do it either... not today at least.)

I'm with you on your conclusion - a general increase of quality would change occasional customers into regular customers. But I'm not quite sure if there even are that many occasional customers to begin with (judging solely from the sales sources of my own product).
Quality will sell, even today. If you'd publish the "to get" book, you can be sure that sales are high (if you can make the public aware of your product... here we go again...) - in comparison. To increase the total number of customers it won't help one bit if we would just make the PDFs more "user friendly".


TheAuldGrump said:
Some people at least have a preconception that PDFs are 'crap'. I have gone so far as to show a friend of mine my collection of PDFs - the reaction? 'Well those are okay, but most PDFs are crap'! This is from someone who has never otherwise looked at a PDF, except for the ESDs of old TSR producrs. (The scans of which are, I will admit, often crap.)
[...]
On the other hand several people went and downloaded some of the World Works terrain after I used mine for a demonstration game.
It's this preconception we should work on. And using PDFs at conventions might help (granted, World Works is an eye-catcher, so that one is easy...).
 

Remove ads

Top