Grr. Return of the King makes me angry.

[Piratecat]

And the slo-mo soft focus bed hugging took three hours in and of itself. Yeek, not my favorite part of a wonderful movie.

 

[David Howery]

While the first movie was by far the most faithful to the book, I really didn't have many qualms about the next two movies... I certainly didn't dislike them. I rather liked the warg/Rohirrim fight (apparently, PJ took a minor note from the book and played it out into a major scene, rather like the fight with the troll in Moria, or the Mumakils at Pelennor). What I didn't like was Aragorn's seeming death and miraculous comeback... with Gandalf's miraculous rebirth, that was one miracle too many. It would have been better to just have the fight and then everyone goes on their way to Helm's Deep. Oh, and just what was supposed to have been missing from Eowyn's moment of glory? The movie seemed to follow the book damn near exactly on this episode, other than rearranging some of the dialogue (which had to be done, since everyone watching the movie knew it was Eowyn under the disguise, unlike in the book, where it was a mystery).
As for the Scouring, I'd always thought it was a way of showing how the horrors of war can touch even the most protected and quiet of lands....

 

[KenM]

Well, only two weeks until Return of the King extended DVD. I'm saving the rest of my thoughts until I've seen the extended.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Then how do you explain the last thirty minutes actually in the film? Seriously, everything after the ring getting destroyed seemed to last twice as long as the entire rest of the film combined.

That's probably my only complaint (well, okay, the Dead sweeping in so quickly was eh). Not the length, so much as the bad way it was done and how much of it was repeated within the time given to it.

I dislike the Scouring greatly myself. Merry & Pippin are lawless bully's and Frodo is a whiney little nag. The fact that Saruman directly tells them he's gonna go ruin the Shire and then they go sit in Rivendell for a couple months, just makes it worse for me.

But, this topic is a year old now! None of us will really change our minds.

 

[Zoatebix]

Just a few points for cleaning up:

its so slow paced and he has the characters break out into song about something that has NOTHING to do with the plot. He goes on and on describing almost everything the characters see while traveling, but he does not describe major battles, plot points well.

IIRC Tolkein was an expert in the study of Medieval Romanaces, Epic Poems, and Folk Stories, and primarily oral-tradition story-telling. The "diagetic" (is "diagetic" an appropriate literay term?) songs, poems, and stories are all a big part of the oral epics he's emulating in the Lord of the Rings. There're at least two lengthy stories (in addition to all the epic similes) in Beowulf, and I'm almost positive Tolkein was a big Beowulf fan.

why are we getting this tacked-on 'mini-sequel' at the end, here? What does this have to do with the Lord of the Rings? He's gone, isn't he? Maybe it works from a literary standpoint, and maybe it doesn't.

I think The Lord of the Rings is as much a "genre study" of ancient literary techniques as it is a work of modern epic fantasy. Beowulf's fight with the Dragon is the same kind of mini-sequil - the climax was 30 or more years (my figures are sketchy - it's been a few months since I read it...) before when he beheads Grendel's mom. Or maybe it "climaxes" with Grendel - it doesn't fit the exposition-complications-climax-denouement model as well as more modern stories.

"I concede the literary merit of the Scouring. I dispute only its narrative merit."

It has merit in a narrative system that's 1500 years or more divorced from what we're used to reading and watching.

"Yeah. The point of the Hero's Quest is that after returning from the Land of Adventure he is able to work boons for his people."

I think that's the point exactly.

Anyways, I haven't read the Lord of the Rings since I've been an adult (I've been meaning to), and I certainly haven't studied it or Tolkein in an acadmic setting yet, so I don't claim that my assertions are 100% accurate. I'm just trying to show that there's a whole lot more (over a thousand years of story-telling history more) than the transposition of a story from novel to film at work here.

Rock on!
-George

 

[Amal Shukup]

... Oh, and just what was supposed to have been missing from Eowyn's moment of glory? The movie seemed to follow the book damn near exactly on this episode...

Eh? Not hardly. Baddy lands. BRIEF dialog, then 'chop!' (from an awkward and frankly uncinematic angle even) and that's IT - off to the next scene. I think the scene of the Witch King pulling on his gauntlets or whatever before the battle was longer...

But my problem with the scene isn't narrative - what needed to happen in order to propel the story forward happened. My problem is in terms of directoral emphasis: After all, this is the Witch King of Angmar, prophesized by Glorfindel to 'not perish by the hands of men'. Lord of the Nazgul. Sauron's single most powerful servant. He destroyed of the Northern Kingdom of Arnor, captured Minas Ithil (later Morgul), killed the last King of Gondor (why they have Stewards now). Sacked Osgilliath... The list goes on. One of the biggest baddies extant. The Balrog? A REALLY bad roll on the ol' Random Encounter Table. This guy? An actual big deal, Sauron's Main Henchman for, like, 2.5 Millenia...

'Chop'? 'CHOP?!' Come. On! I want menace. I want some slo mo, I want despair and defiance. I want drawn out, loving, camera angles. The Rohirrim fleeing at his dread approach - save Dernhelm/Eowyn who stands in his way against all reason. (And I mean ALL reason. Had the dawn not arrived and forced the Witch King to go rally his army, he might have slapped GANDALF all over the place). I want the fell beast's beheading in glorious technicolor. I want he Witch King's palpable moment of doubt as he realizes that there might be an unfortunate loophole in his predestined invincibility. I want the blow that shatters Eowyn's shield (and arm). I want Merry (also no 'man') wielding the enspelled sword of Westernesse (forged during the desperate war against Angmar over 1000 years earlier) and disrupting the foul magics binding the Witch King to his twisted unlife. I want the desperate thrust between 'crown and mantle' that dispatches him shown for what it was - the single biggest blow for the side of good anybody managed in the whole darn story.

And consequences: Just touching this guy with a weapon was so damaging as to be almost certainly fatal save for the intervention of the Returned King and his 'healing hands'...

But no. We got 'Chop', a weird little fizzle, and some odd visual effects. Not. Good. Enough.

Bombadil and the Wight? Sure, so be it. Scouring? Missed it, but so be it. Warg battle? Stupid, but so be it. No confrontation with Saruman at Orthanc? Unfortunate, but so be it. A 3 minute scene featuring Mumakil surfing by the twinked out elf? Grrrrr, but SO BE IT.

But 'chop'? No. I'm sorry Peter, that's a reshoot. Do it the heck over.

A'Mal

 

[Zoatebix]

My list of favorite posters (or maybe favorite posts?) grows one larger. Go A'Mal!

 

[Amal Shukup]

Is Theoden's rallying speech before the cavalry charge in RotK new material, or Tolkien's? Is it just that the actor was really good?

The actor - and the direction of that scene - WAS really, really good. Better than flawless. The whole riding down the line whacking swords was awesome. "St. Crispin? Hal my boy, who gives a wet slap 'bout Crispin?"

But, to give Tolkien his due, the speech content is largely Tolkien's, although pulled from a couple of places - Theoden's and a slightly later one by Eomer

Theoden: "Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered, a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!"

Eomer's contribution: "Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending!"

Oh yeah. Extended version soon. Must. Not. Explode. In. Anticipation...

A'Mal

 

[shilsen]

The actor - and the direction of that scene - WAS really, really good. Better than flawless. The whole riding down the line whacking swords was awesome.

I can't remember where I read it, but apparently the whole "riding down the line whacking spears" bit was something Bernard Law came up with himself and Jackson let him run with, because it was just so cool.

"St. Crispin? Hal my boy, who gives a wet slap 'bout Crispin?"

 

[qstor]

I think the one thing that really irks me in the RotK is the fact that Frodo is hanging on the edge of the cliff over the lava. I mean how MORE of a dramatic ending can you ask for? I'd prefer to have it in the book. Most of the other things in the RotK were minor for me.

Mike