Grr. Return of the King makes me angry.

[RangerWickett]

Which only reminds me of how very irritating I found it that Merry and Pippin were changed from aristocrats of the highest rank to gangrels and petty thieves. I would rather have lost the Unexpected Party than the Conspiracy Unmasked.

Last time I read Lord of the Rings was 7 years ago. Refresh me, please, on what this unmasked conspiracy is.

 

[Klaus]

Funny. Some of the parts that people called "corniest" or "more artificial" was stuff that came straight out of the books, like Faramir's "show his quality" line, or Sam's speech at the end of TTT (in the book he says it when Frodo despaiers at seeing the Witch King's army).

For me the only good part about the Scouring was that we got to see how much arse Pippin and Merry could kick, fully decked out as warriors. In the movie this is paralleled by the farmer's reaction at seeing the hobbits come back, fully dressed and totally sure of themselves (and Frodo dressed as, as I call it, a "hobbit vampire" ).

 

[WizarDru]

Last time I read Lord of the Rings was 7 years ago. Refresh me, please, on what this unmasked conspiracy is.

It's a very little thing, in the grand scope. The 'consipiracy' is simply that Frodo is pretending to move to a new house, selling Bag End and heading off to a quiet life in the countryside. He is, of course, actually preparing for the journey with the ring...but only Sam is supposed to know that. When he gets to the new house, Merry and Pippin are there, and have already figured out that Frodo and Sam are up to something...and Frodo relents and reveals what's going on. Not exactly riveting material, for a movie. It's very slow-paced, and requires that after Gandalf tells the hobbits to take flight...that Frodo take 3+ months to actually do so. Remember that between the party and his return, in the books, Gandalf is gone for 30+ years.

And while Merry and Pippin could have been made more aristocratic, then you have to explain that fact, followed by redoubling your efforts to make them seem humble and non-aristocratic following that point: an easy task for the books, but a luxury a movie can't afford, IMHO.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Sorry, but I hardly see the Scouring as contrived or extraneous.

...

Between you can barsoomcore, that was perhaps the best defense I've ever seen mounted of the Scouring. I'm impressed. That almost makes it sound worth the out-of-control anticlimax problem. However, I maintain that the Scouring is one of the reasons LotR has always seemed to me like a great story bookended by interminable periods spent in the Shire. YMMV and apparently does.

Peter Jackson himself said that it was anti-climactic.

Feh. What's more convincing is that Tolkien himself labeled it as nothing more than "an excuse to make them heroes in their own land." I'd just as soon they not be. Most heroes aren't, IME.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Between you can barsoomcore, that was perhaps the best defense I've ever seen mounted of the Scouring. I'm impressed. That almost makes it sound worth the out-of-control anticlimax problem. However, I maintain that the Scouring is one of the reasons LotR has always seemed to me like a great story bookended by interminable periods spent in the Shire. YMMV and apparently does.

The first time I tried to read the novel, TTT bored me to tears. Then I couldn't get through all the Mordor stuf in RotK. Now, I've read the book over 30 times, and each time I notice how something that didn't seem important weaves into the story. It has become my favorite book.

Feh. What's more convincing is that Tolkien himself labeled it as nothing more than "an excuse to make them heroes in their own land." I'd just as soon they not be. Most heroes aren't, IME.

Yes, but Tolkein, like all creators, was somewhat conflicted about his work. He denied the relationship between the War of the Ring and WWII, for example, despite the fact that he wrote the Mordor bits and sent them off to his son who was fighting in the trenches at that time.

Tolkein was also adamantly opposed to ending a film version of TTT where Jackson did. And, he was opposed to Disney having anything to do with a film version.

Tolkein would often refer to LotR as a simple adventure story, but there were also times that he talked about the themes and what was going on behind the scenes. For example, one major theme in the book that makes no appearance in the movies is that Sauron's great sin is trying to order creation to his liking. It was also the great sin of the elves, who were not meant to go to Middle Earth in the first place, and who tried to stay time through the creation of the Three Rings. In the books, this is why Lothlorien seems so timeless. In fact, time explicitly flows differently there, and Sam is "off his reckoning" when the moon is in the wrong phase after they leave. Rivendell is also always described as having a rather timeless quality.

From this standpoint, having the Three Rings fade with the passing of the One Ruling Ring, and having the elves pass from Middle Earth, is actually a correction in the grand scheme of things. Sad for those left behind, certainly, but a correction nonetheless.

Boromir is seduced by the Ring because he does not know his place. He was to be Steward of Gondor; like his father, he preferred to be King. His brother, Faramir, was chosen for the Quest, but Boromir took it upon himself (again, reference the books, not the movie).

Frodo is able to succeed largely because he does not try to do more than his part. He is Ring Bearer, not Ring Destroyer. Likewise, Sam is able to return the Ring to Frodo because Sam does not desire to be a hero, or to be anything more than he is. They do not share the sin of Sauron.

Of course, it goes without saying that all of this stuff wouldn't work in a movie. There have been really great movies that have dealt with philosophical themes, but no movie could deal with all of the material in LotR and still be watchable. Even the poetry, as often as it is criticized, is actually integral to the overall vision of the book (and Middle Earth).


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Feh. What's more convincing is that Tolkien himself labeled it as nothing more than "an excuse to make them heroes in their own land." I'd just as soon they not be. Most heroes aren't, IME.

One more quick salvo: Despite having honor throughout the West, Frodo was generally considered a minor figure in the Shire. Sam, Pippin, and Merry became the heroes there.

This showed not only how weary and damaged Frodo was, but it also makes your point. The greatest of heroes are often not recognized in their own land.

It is also an echo of Gandalf: Frodo's task is done. The Scouring of the Shire must be left to others.

RC

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

One more quick salvo: Despite having honor throughout the West, Frodo was generally considered a minor figure in the Shire. Sam, Pippin, and Merry became the heroes there.

This showed not only how weary and damaged Frodo was, but it also makes your point. The greatest of heroes are often not recognized in their own land.

Fair enough

I concede the literary merit of the Scouring. I dispute only its narrative merit.

 

[Raven Crowking]

lol

 

[Storm Raven]

Peter Jackson himself said that it was anti-climactic.

Which just illustrates the source of the (handful) of problematic changes that were made to the story: in many ways Peter Jackson and the other individuals who adapted the screen play missed what was important about the books.

 

[F5]

I knew going into the movie that the Scouring wouldn't be in it, and a long talk with a theatre director friend of mine helped convince me that I was OK with that.

The thing that really sticks in my craw about the end of Return is how absolutely, god-awful bad the effects are in the scene where Frodo and Bilbo board the White Ship. Compare that shot to, say, Frodo jumping on Gandalf's wagon in the beginning of Fellowship. The CGI they use there makes it seamless. Can anyone tell me that when Bilbo walks up the plank, he looks like anything other than a short person in a wig? I'm hoping that the extended edition maybe "enhances" this scene somewhat. It just struck me that with so much spectacular effects-work being done throughout all three movies, that they should leave off with such a bad shot so close to the end.