GSL news.

[Wolfspider]

The idea that Green Ronin must choose between True20 and 4E support is
a no-win situation for gamers.

Excellent point. The GSL means that one of the two will happen:

1. The gaming community will lose True20 and Mutants & Masterminds; or
2. The gaming community will not have Green Ronin producing books for D&D 4e.

Ouch.

 

[Zil]

Imaro, you're actually, in your own words the poster child for this. You state, "I honestly would have stopped playing D&D a while ago if it wasn't for Midnight and Iron Kingdoms giving me settings I really liked, the adventures by Paizo, True20 that kept me in d20 with it's adaptability and Mongoose who gave me the Lonewolf rpg". In other words, you already weren't buying WOTC material. From their point of view, it doesn't matter if you were still playing d20, because they're not getting anything out of that. You may as well be playing White Wolf or Paladium as far as they are concerned

Some of the products mentioned there are settings and adventures, which certainly do feed back into supporting the core D&D area. If some of the people playing in these third party settings continue to buy various WoTC 'crunch' products (the Complete series, Weapons of Legacy, etc)., then Wizards was still potentially getting something back.

 

[Imaro]

Imaro, you're actually, in your own words the poster child for this. You state, "I honestly would have stopped playing D&D a while ago if it wasn't for Midnight and Iron Kingdoms giving me settings I really liked, the adventures by Paizo, True20 that kept me in d20 with it's adaptability and Mongoose who gave me the Lonewolf rpg". In other words, you already weren't buying WOTC material. From their point of view, it doesn't matter if you were still playing d20, because they're not getting anything out of that. You may as well be playing White Wolf or Paladium as far as they are concerned.

I think it's a case of realizing that the original OGL didn't do what they wanted it to do which was get companies to support D&D and sell PHB's, but rather created their own competition.

I disagree...to a point. Those products didn't get me to buy more PHB's, because your right I didn't need the PHB's if I can buy a complete game for maybe 10 dollars more than what the PHB by itself cost. However I did purchase WotC sourcebooks to see what I could grab for use in whatever game I was playing. Classes, feats, skill uses, spells, new rules like taint, etc. were all stuff I could convert and use. Now if my only option had been to play D&D as RAW...I probably would have stuck with the core 3.5 books...especially after the poor quality and shodiness of WotC's 3.0 sourcebooks.

 

[Psion]

With all due respect to you and the games/companies you mentioned, you're dreaming.

Don't get me wrong-- it's a nice dream; I don't particularly want to wake up myself.

(shrug) That dream is my reality.

Now I know that in the big scheme of things, my reality is more like a demiplane, but still.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

(shrug) That dream is my reality.

Now I know that in the big scheme of things, my reality is more like a demiplane, but still.

Touche.

 

[Lizard]

With all due respect to you and the games/companies you mentioned, you're dreaming.

Don't get me wrong-- it's a nice dream; I don't particularly want to wake up myself.

How so?

It's all legal. And I think as people begin exploring niches, they'll find that the way the OGL lets them take a lot of the classic D&D IP and convert it to other systems is valuable. There's a (false) perception that the OGL licenses systems. It doesn't. It licenses text, and all text is equal...

 

[amethal]

In other words, you already weren't buying WOTC material. From their point of view, it doesn't matter if you were still playing d20, because they're not getting anything out of that. You may as well be playing White Wolf or Paladium as far as they are concerned.

I believe Ryan Dancey has said that it did matter to WotC.

The idea is that d20 gamers looking to try another system could well switch back to D&D, as they already know the system. Those playing White Wolf would have to relearn d20, and might decide to try Palladium instead.

 

[Hussar]

They certainly shouldn't do that. But their selection in solution makes attacking the Open Gaming movement (and by extension, gamers as a whole) part of the issue.
I believe an attitude that saw what is best for gamers and what is best for WotC as being more of a synergy would have been much better.

The idea that Green Ronin must choose between True20 and 4E support is a no-win situation for gamers. I consider it bad that WotC has thoughtfully put their fans in that situation.

I disagree with the assumption that bringing all gaming systems under the d20 umbrella is good for gamers. I think that a lot of games are getting stifled simply because everything must be d20 or it won't sell.

Note, I believe that a publisher could publish their own game and 4e material if they wanted to. What they cannot do is publish 4e and 3e OGL material at the same time.

So, if, say, Mutants and Masterminds came up with its own system, then it could be published as well as 4e.

Or, if M&M was updated to 4e mechanics under the d20 GSL, then GR could sell D&D products under the D&D GSL. (I'm getting my acronyms screwed up.)

From what I understand though, they cannot sell a d20 M&M using d20 OGL material.

That doesn't mean that M&M has to die. It does mean that it will likely see revision though.

 

[Hussar]

I believe Ryan Dancey has said that it did matter to WotC.

The idea is that d20 gamers looking to try another system could well switch back to D&D, as they already know the system. Those playing White Wolf would have to relearn d20, and might decide to try Palladium instead.

I've seen this, to use Lizard's phrase, meme bounced around a lot. I'm not sure if I really buy it. If someone leaves 3e for a d20 game, they've likely left because they don't like 3e for whatever reason. Why would they then later come back to 3e?

I think, and this is purely my gut feeling, the reality was closer to: Enter gaming through D&D, become disillusioned with D&D for whatever reason, move on to another pasture. The amount of gamers who circled back into D&D was much smaller than the numbers who left. So, basically, you're allowing your competitors to bleed off your customers using your own creations.

No one has ever been able to say how much the OGL actually succeeded in keeping gamers within the D&D umbrella. Myself included. It could very well be that d20 did. I don't know. I doubt it quite honestly, but, I could very well be wrong.

 

[Imaro]

I disagree with the assumption that bringing all gaming systems under the d20 umbrella is good for gamers. I think that a lot of games are getting stifled simply because everything must be d20 or it won't sell.

Note, I believe that a publisher could publish their own game and 4e material if they wanted to. What they cannot do is publish 4e and 3e OGL material at the same time.

So, if, say, Mutants and Masterminds came up with its own system, then it could be published as well as 4e.

Or, if M&M was updated to 4e mechanics under the d20 GSL, then GR could sell D&D products under the D&D GSL. (I'm getting my acronyms screwed up.)

From what I understand though, they cannot sell a d20 M&M using d20 OGL material.

That doesn't mean that M&M has to die. It does mean that it will likely see revision though.

The problem with this thinking is that most gamers are casual gamers and while the casual gamer is willing (most of the time) try variations on something he/she knows...IMHO most casual gamers are very adverse to having to learn a totally different system, especially as they grow older and less time can be focused on rpg's as opposed to other things in life. Right now most of my group knows the storyteller system and d20, whenever I announce we are playing a variant of those systems my players are automatically at ease...the minute I start talking about a totally new system, I really have to sell them.