Guardian/Consular Balance (Redux)

[HeapThaumaturgist]

So we're a ways into our SWRPG game ... and the consulars are starting to grumble. It started as some off-hand comments, then some in-game exclamations, and now to Out Of Game complaints.

The Guardians all out-perform the Consulars ... hands down, in every category, at all times ... despite my best attempts to mitigate the situation from out of the door.

It comes down to there only being so many uses for Bluff and Diplomacy in the world, and even the people who are good with those skills get bored if that's all they do all day each session.

There are equally important skills in the game ... Computer Use seems to come up many times per game, and it's a class skill for both classes.

Currently we have two Guardians and two Consulars. Out Of Combat, the Ithorian is the mouthpiece for the group ... which he takes to well. Role Playing interaction, however, is Player to Player as much as it is skill based, so in many ways the Guardians are just as engaged during those parts of the game as the other two.

The jawa-consular wanted to be the tech/repair/slicer of the group, so to speak, so that's the normal skills he put his ranks into. One of the guardians maxed out Computer Use, and nothing else, really (but for a few Knowledge skills I'm requiring of everybody and handed out free points for) ... his Computer Use is the same as the Jawa's Computer Use. Spreading out his points to do more things, the Jawa also has problems meeting skill checks that scale for level, seeing as they have to be divided between Force Skills and normal skills.

The Ithorian, who specialized as a Healer, can use Heal Other really really really well ... but the skill is usable once a day per person and at the best rolls heals up only about as much damage as a blaster or a single lightsaber hit, so it doesn't really HELP that much, especially as he has to take his pants down for a round to do it. So he tends to try and save the Healing until there's going to be dire need, in case his one shot gets used up too early in the day, etc etc.

So he's pretty much reduced to following the Guardians around and using Force Push to bowl over enemies. Which, while effective, is TOO effective most of the time. Using Force Strike/Push with the damage "on" nets a DSP but wiping people out left and right doesn't. Which isn't TOO big a deal, but I can tell he feels like a one trick pony.

He'd chosen Battle Meditation and Inspire, but the +1 attack bonus costs alot of VP either way and the Guardians each take the first round of combat to "Jedi Buff" with Enhance Ability and Battlemind, so neither of those abilities are really of any use. I even let the +1 stack, but I'm not sure if it should since I think Battlemind is a Force bonus and so is Battle Meditation, but either way, zapping his own VP for 1/6 the bonus to attack rolls to the damage-gods never seems particularly appealing.

I'd like to say I'm a pretty good GM. I'm a tinker-er, so I'm trying to find some ways to swing things ... I'm contemplating folding Hide/Move Silently together into a single Stealth skill for the "Jawa Sentinel" to take as a class skill, freeing up a few points ... I passed the Ithorian a free 3 skill points early-game for being the only person to send me a good character background when I asked for them ... etc. Just hard to really argue when the players come to me and say: "Why are we losing out on VP and BAB for 2 skill points? 1 skill point, really." Since the Consulars also happen to be aliens and the guardians also happen to be Human. Any stat differences disappeared with the various Jedi Force Skills that change skill bonuses and abilities.

Just ... despite my best efforts, I've got two really GOOD players who are definately less than happy about the way the game is going.

--fje

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Let's look at core d20.

Paladin to ranger. d10 to d8 hit dice, same BAB, probably slightly worse class features. The ranger has 6 skill points.

Paladin to rogue. d10 to d6 hit dice, 1/1 to 3/4 BAB, probably slightly worse class features. The rogue has 8 skill points.

Based on your description, I assume the Jedi Guardian has d10 VP, 1/1 BAB and 4 sp, and the Jedi Consular has d8 VP, 3/4 BAB and 6 sp? Assuming roughly equal class features, I'd bump the latter up to 8 sp.

I'd also make sure you give the group plenty of skill-based challenges.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Yes, I was having a discussion with the player in question and I said that it was more like Cleric Vs. Paladin ... when he pointed out that Paladin doesn't get spells for four levels while Cleric gains Domains.

I might give the two some more SP to balance things out. That's 10 more ranks, though, and I don't want to jump into anything and have the guardians start complaining.

They're used to my constant tinkering, anymore. We already have a small boat load of house rules.

A few more SP to spread the love around might help. The Guardians NEED fewer SP because they generally work with fewer powers anyway ... buff up, then slice things to pieces. I think the guardians won't have a problem because what helps any player helps the whole group and they all work together pretty well.

--fje

 

[Psion]

I'd also make sure you give the group plenty of skill-based challenges.

Yup.

Last SW d20 game I was in, I played a constular/investigator. Another jedi played the classic munched out guardian/weapons master.

In that game, I was the munchkin. The GM ran a bit more investigative type of game and my force-enhnaced spot and listen were just the ticket.

AFAIAC, it all comes down to playstyle.

 

[Rhun]

I am sort of a tinkerer myself when it comes to rules, and I have yet to kick off my SWd20 campaign. But has anyone played with the idea of seperating Force Skills from normal Skills, and possibly awarding different amounts of Skill Points for the two?

I got this idea from the KOTOR games, where the three Jedi classes gain Skill Points, Feats and Force Powers all at different rates. I thought that it made for more distinction and variation between the classes...so where the Guardian is a much more powerful combatant, the Consular is the master at using the Force and having an array of Force powers.

Like I said, I haven't tried it myself yet, but it is a thought...

 

[DnDChick]

I am sort of a tinkerer myself when it comes to rules, and I have yet to kick off my SWd20 campaign. But has anyone played with the idea of seperating Force Skills from normal Skills, and possibly awarding different amounts of Skill Points for the two?

I think the biggest problem with this is that it will cause the Jedi to outshine all the other character classes even more than they already do. In an all-Jedi campaign, that probably wouldn't be an issue, though.

 

[Rhun]

I think the biggest problem with this is that it will cause the Jedi to outshine all the other character classes even more than they already do. In an all-Jedi campaign, that probably wouldn't be an issue, though.

That is a good point! I hate balance issues.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I'm playing an all-Jedi game, myself, and I've already stipulated that I'll be giving any non-Jedi classes some bennies to account for the Jedi power-structure and the fact that some of my rules pump Jedi a little more than even RAW. Jumps, falls, Push, etc.

I try to put together a MIX of all types of challenges ... skill/investigative challenges, combat challenges, interaction challenges. Usually I try to include some of all kinds in every session, so everybody feels included.

Which is why I saw the problems ... it's not that the Guardians can slice-and-dice better than the Consulars. Everybody knows this, everybody expects this. It's that the consulars, having to spread their (essentially) one extra skill point to, on average, 4-6 more skills, makes them -on all fronts- weaker than the Guardians.

I understand the "investigator"-Jedi's frustration when his Hide and Move Silently can't regularly hit DC 15-18 at 5th level, or when his (pretty critical) Computer Use skill is matched or exceeded by one of the Guardians.

I can see the Healer's frustration when his core power is, essentially, a one-shot deal that, at best, can heal the equivalent of a Blaster Bolt (2d6+6 avg. 13 vs. 3d8 avg. 13.5). His Charisma and Diplomacy/Gather Information checks can be hand-waved with the other Guardian's Affect Mind, or his own Friendship checks. His hard-to-get and quite costly Battle Meditation is a drop in the bucket compared to Enhance Ability (Dex) and Battlemind.

It just seems like Force Skills generally out-strip normal skills for, really, lest cost (Move Object can mitigate all KINDS of things, same with Affect Mind, etc) and that a "Skills Jedi" with 1-2 more skill points a level just isn't worth the hit it takes everywhere else. The Consulars would be fine if the damage-gods did the damage and left the skills-monkeying to them ... but the Guardians can really do BOTH and one of them (skills) as-well and the other (combat) much much better.

--fje

 

[DnDChick]

I think this has been discussed elsewhere, but could you design a single Jedi class using sort of an "average" of the two classes in the book?

It shouldn't be too difficult. IIRC they get class abilities at about the same rate. Maybe:

1. BAB and Defense of the Consular
2. Saves and Hit Dice of the Guardian
3. Normal class feature progression

Now, I don't remember how many skill points each Jedi class gets, but perhaps there is a way to work out an "average" skill point value?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It seems also a problem of the group itself - why do the Guardians max skills that the Consulars also want to use? Maybe they should concentrate more on the essential skills for "fighter" - Climb, Jump, Swim, (or even Ride, Handle Animal) and so on?

Otherwise, I think the best solution to the problem would be to give the Consulars more skill points...