Guardians of the ...

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
In space, a high-powered pellet gun has the potential to kill everyone on board a space station, shuttle, ship. The definition of "WMD" is mostly irrelevant when talking about 'ship to ship' combat or attacks against, say, a moon base of our current and foreseeable future.

As you later note, the treaty was not made to address ship to ship combat, or protect bases in space. It was designed to keep space from being militarized against the Earth.


Space need to be seen as NEUTRAL TERRITORY, akin to the Antarctica, but more so.
Insofar as the treaty also states that no country can claim territory on any celestial body, that is the case. We plant flags, but those do not indicate ownership.

Nations do retain sovereignty over things they put in space. That's a reason why weapons are allowed - to allow self-defense. Plus, in space what qualifies as a "weapon" in general is a bit difficult to classify. Anything that might puncture a space suit may be considered a weapon, after all.

There should be a RIDICULOUS penalty for stirring up shtuff in space for ANY "entity" (country, person, company, etc). HUGE penalties. Like, "you can't afford to do this or your country is in the doghouse, worldwide, for the next 100 years" kind of penalty.

There is no such penalty. Even wars do not provide such a penalty.


If space ISN'T considered "NEUTRAL GROUND" and open to ANYONE who goes there...country, religion, company, or individual...then it's ONLY going to end in pain and suffering. I can guarantee that.

Your personal guarantee? I guess that serves to spell out your emotional stance, but even then, it isn't like anyone can or will hold you to that. But I don't think that's convincing.

"Neutral ground" is a concept of tense nations in conflict. Space won't be "safe" to develop in meaningful senses unless we are past that, into a state of cooperation, rather than conflict.

You want to put a base on the Moon? Go for it. Your rival wants to put a base on the moon 100km from you? Go for it.

Given that any permanent base on the surface is apt to be using frozen water and other resources on the Moon (or Mars), you are now allowing for free competition for resources - resources that are life and death to the occupants of those stations. Water and range wars ensue. Blood flows.

So, sorry, but "everybody do what you want" will tend to lead to violence.
 

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Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Did Disney buy the US Military too?

I’m a bit disappointed though, I was so hoping they would be called The Galaxy Rangers

E4855E91-BD7C-4233-B526-8EC6C3DEDCD9.jpeg
 

pming

Legend
Hiya.
As you later note, the treaty was not made to address ship to ship combat, or protect bases in space. It was designed to keep space from being militarized against the Earth.

Insofar as the treaty also states that no country can claim territory on any celestial body, that is the case. We plant flags, but those do not indicate ownership.

Nations do retain sovereignty over things they put in space. That's a reason why weapons are allowed - to allow self-defense. Plus, in space what qualifies as a "weapon" in general is a bit difficult to classify. Anything that might puncture a space suit may be considered a weapon, after all.

There is no such penalty. Even wars do not provide such a penalty.

Your personal guarantee? I guess that serves to spell out your emotional stance, but even then, it isn't like anyone can or will hold you to that. But I don't think that's convincing.

"Neutral ground" is a concept of tense nations in conflict. Space won't be "safe" to develop in meaningful senses unless we are past that, into a state of cooperation, rather than conflict.

Given that any permanent base on the surface is apt to be using frozen water and other resources on the Moon (or Mars), you are now allowing for free competition for resources - resources that are life and death to the occupants of those stations. Water and range wars ensue. Blood flows.

So, sorry, but "everybody do what you want" will tend to lead to violence.
They (treaties) may have been designed for 'orbit-to-planet' initially, but these are what will lead to precedence. This will lead to court cases, and those court cases will lead to using those treaties as a base. All it takes is for a Judge to think "Naaa...that's silly" and then make a judgement. Now that becomes precedence. Rinse and repeat and...well, we have the completely messed up, bias and virtually useless Court System we have now. Of course, all IMHO. :)

It would be nice to start a NEW baseline precedence that focuses on "we all have to survive in space together...or we all die together in space"...and where countries "ambitions" take a back seat.

As for the whole "self defense in space"...that's the problem. It goes back to the initial paragraph here; we are trying to use "earth based, country/culture/law" as a baseline for how things should work in space. I think that's bad. Look at the earth. Someone would be hard pressed to say it's all going along swimmingly, no? ;)

We, as a species, have the opportunity RIGHT NOW to do something different than what we did before. We have the opportunity to say "Ok, countries are fine and all, but in space, there are no countries. Culture is fine and all, but in space, there is no culture. Religion is fine and all, but in space, there is no religion, etc, etc, etc". There is, literally, NOBODY in our solar system right now that we are aware of. Maybe even the entire spiral arm of our little galaxy here. Maybe even in the ENTIRE galaxy. We, as a species, need to look past all those mostly pointless "human hang-ups" we have regarding our personal identities and start thinking of ourselves as "just humans". My thoughts are obvious; the 'laws' we create for space right now should reflect what we WANT to be...not what we THINK we will be.

I am emotional about this, true. But I think a lot of people are...and more people should be. Getting out into space now, with serious "this is happening!" vibes going on for getting a Lunar Base, a "half-way-to-Mars" supply outpost, and a Mars base, needs to be done with a planetary mindset...not one as small and petty as "well, MY country is cooler!".

The whole Moon thing? Yeah...just replace "competition" with "cooperation" and you have it. ;) Competition means "I want to keep you from getting what I want"...this is the typical American mindset (and many other western-style countries). It's also human nature to want to test oneself against others. I have no problem with that. But the prize should be for prestige, fame and bragging rights...not any sort of monetary gain. So three different Lunar bases 'competing' to see who can extract the most water is a good thing; but once extracted, it ALL goes into the same tank where everyone can draw from it as equal partners (for example). As I said...we have the opportunity to try and get away from how things work here on Earth, and try and form something of how we wished it worked on Earth.

"Everybody do what you want" will lead to violence. Yup. I can't disagree with that. However, as I said, if everyone NOT involved in that violence holds those involved in the violence accountable for their own actions...and it HURTS for them to be held accountable...well, "mutually assured destruction" has worked wonders for all the countries with nukes! ;)

If we can get a spirit and functional system where cooperation and sharing FAR outweighs the "me first" attitude of so many on this planet right now...I think it's a good thing. Right now, space is mostly a blank slate. Might as well shoot for something better than what we have now, right? If we fail at that, I'm sure there will be no shortage of military, pharmaceutical, and technological sociopaths in positions of power to make space just as peaceful and accepting as we have right now.
;)

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
I would like to see a Star Trek Philosophy ("what if the better angels of mens' nature were in the ascendent?") future.
President Kennedy invited the world to watch / root for NASA and America's space program. The Apollo project, Voyager and the other space probes through New Horizons were triumphs of human endeavor. Artemis and Musk's goal of a man on Mars could be also.

But that mindset is not common. At the individual or government policy-setter levels.
A fact that will not change even after you berate people repeatedly and very severely.
Alas.
 

Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
In the universe of The Martian, maritime law has been extended to cover space. Maritime law might be a good starting point? This also leads to one of the best lines in the movie, though legally dubious.. ;-)
 

It's all a rather overblown rebranding of an existing division of the Air Force. Whether it really merits or benefits from being it's own branch of the US military is certainly up for debate, but rest assured it will do exactly nothing the US military were not doing or going to do anyway, with or without a special branch devoted to it.
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!

@Benjamin Olson I unfortunately agree with you. Right now, I honestly think our best chance of something "decent" coming out of space travel is with the "benevolant billionaires" like Musk. Branson used to be up there, but not for a while (at least nothing I've heard...as far as I know he might have died). We need more eccentric Musk's out there.

That or some alien space faring race that isn't even a tenth as psychotic as we humans are and that are willing to step in and be the "adult" in the situation.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

GreyLord

Legend
I think it's ridiculous, but that's just me.

Also, it demeans the role of Guardsmen or Coast Guardsmen. There was a push among the Coasties to have them called Guardians as well...and it fit them better.

This is sort of a slap in their face.
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!

If they're gonna make it all military like and give them weapons and armour and whatnot...might as well "Go BIG or go HOME!". Perhaps the name : "Adeptus Astartes".
😁

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

Ulfgeir

Hero
Hiya!

If they're gonna make it all military like and give them weapons and armour and whatnot...might as well "Go BIG or go HOME!". Perhaps the name : "Adeptus Astartes".
😁

^_^

Paul L. Ming
Well given the litigious history of a certain company that makes such figures, the lawyers will have a field-day. Hopefully such troops would be a bit more competent than their namesakes (and also not brainwashed fanatics). ;)
 

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