Guidance Cleric cantrip is really dumb

[jgsugden]

Make it more fun. Ask the player casting the spell to state the guidance the spell is providing, and then work it into how the ability check plays out. They might be trying tofind the perfect advice or might say something odd.

From a balance perspectivve it is no problem at all.

 

[ClaytonCross]

So I have a tome warlock scout with Guidance. I find, I don't cast it all the time on everyone. For example, If the party rogue is going to check a door for traps, I am proficient as well, I cast guidance and provide the help action HOWEVER the fighter watching our back while we do this does not and the wizard investigating the room does not. If I am guarding the back I might cast it on the rogue but I will not provide the help action as I am busy.

I would suggest this is a player issue to discuses with the cleric. It doesn't make since for him to cast guidance on EVERYTHING. Cast it on the primary known issue the cleric wants to support but then let the group do there things. 2 reasons for this, First, if the result of casting guidance on everything is that all DCs raise it is not longer useful it just hold back the group and actually lowers the odds because you have to roll well on 2 dice instead of one. Secondly, not only does it trivialize action but trivial actions are also made unreasonably important. If a mage investigates for secrets in every room with no expectation of finding anything why does he wait for the cleric and why does the cleric think its so important to cast this spell? I would bring this up to the players. Why are you waiting for the cleric? Do you have reason to believe there is something here you need to find or area you just killing time and checking for good measure? If you have someone doing something dangerous and someone calmly looking around the room it makes since that the cleric would aid in removing damager which usually means casting guidance on the rogue for checking for and disarming traps on doors/chests which is a common danger or the rear guard watching the back.

If players don't head this advice and continue to guidance every test, have patrols stealth in from behind regularly and make the role without guidance because the cleric can only cast it on one at a time since it is concentration. As a result they are forced to consider what is more important, their safety or looking for loot? Also, for conversation checks, if they cast it in the room have guards and staff go on alert when they start casting the verbal and semantic parts of the spell. "Oh your going to charm me are you? Get out of my shop NOW! Guards escort them out our business is done." Subtle spell is a sorcerer ability casting spells is a very noticeable act for any other class or subtle spell would be almost pointless (short being silenced or having your hands tied). Also, make them wait for more than 10 minutes in a guarded area while the shop owner comes out to deal with them. Magic shops or shops with items of real value could be expected to have guards. On the other side, don't always to this so they have a chance to get away with it sometimes. Just make them choose and occasionally make it costly to chose wrongly particularly in cases where using it hurts them by getting them kicked out or possibly imprisoned. Guidance does not make the target like you like charmed or friends and all 3 only work on one person or test so the "other guard" could still arrest you and could still be your the first guards friend.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm getting really frustrated with the Cleric cantrip Guidance and I'm wondering what your guys thoughts on it are.

For those who don't know Guidance is a Cleric cantrip with a casting time of one action (concentration 1 minute) that works as follows: You touch one willing creature. Once before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of its choice. It can roll the die before or after making the ability check. The spell then ends.

Practically speaking, this means that whenever any member of the party is making any sort of check out of combat the cleric can, and strategically should, cast guidance on them.

The community “solution” seems to be either:

1. the DM should basically force there to be none, or minimal, non-time sensitive checks to force the cleric not to waste his action casting guidance or
2. Up the DC of checks appropriately

My issue though NOT on the technical aspect. The 1d4/ the DC of the check doesn't bother me. My issue is how the cantrips existence affects the immersion/feel of the game. Now, anytime anytime anyone tries to do anything the cleric pipes up saying, “and I cast guidance!" (to make matters worse [although outside the scope of this post] usually someone else will pipe up saying “and I use the help action!”) Already we now have this annoying pocket cleric who is always involved in everything, even situations that should be another character’s time to shine.

But it gets even worse. Often, the party will be in a (out of combat) situation where several different characters will want to use their skills to do something. The thief wants to try to pick the lock on a chest while the ranger sweeps the room for traps and the wizard starts to translate the strange glyphs on the walls. Instead of everyone going about and doing their thing, everyone has to wait for the cleric to come over and give each of them guidance.

And even when it’s not happening all at the same time we have some ridiculous looking situations. The Bard wants to have a conversation with an NPC and try and convince them of something? Hold on, the cleric’s got to be there! Oh, the Fighter is trying to size up different weapons at the shop? Gotta have the priest with ya. Barbarian having a drinking contest? Make sure the clerics on hand; not for the recovery of course, but for the initial drink.

I’ve been told if it bothers me so much I should just ban it from use in those kind of situations, but I really hate taking away player autonomy and contradicting the PHB. Thoughts?
P.S: All this stuff also applies to the help action, although at least there most DM’s I know (and I do this) require an explanation of how they are helping so it at least makes sense; guidance obviously cannot have the same requirement.

Guidance is an out-of-combat spell. Because in-combat you wouldn't spend an action to add 1d4 to someone's ability check. If you were willing to spend an action for that, you'd spend it instead using the Help action which would given them advantage on the check, which is worth more than 1d4.

So given it's an out-of-combat thing, there is no real time constraint. 6 seconds to mumble a prayer to your deity is pretty meaningless in terms of time. Nor is the 1d4 game-breaking for DCs.

So...why require the player to do anything? Why not just treat it as effectively an aura of helpfulness. If you're in 30' of the cleric then, when out of combat and not in initiative, all PCs get a +1d4 to their ability checks.

Now there is no distraction. And it doesn't harm immersion - the general blessing of the clerics deity is over the party and things just tend to work slightly better when near him.

 

[iserith]

First, it might be worth examining whether you're asking for too many checks. If you are calling for a check for just about anything that sounds like it might line up with a proficiency or your players are asking to make checks (as is very common) or just making them unprompted, it may be that theses approaches are encouraging the players to want to increase their chances of success on the ability check by the few means they have to do that. This may be especially true if nothing happens on a failed check or if the stakes are really high. The problem is not the players here. It's a perfectly rational behavior in that kind of environment in my view. If you contrast that with a game where the DM more or less balances ruling success (or failure) against calling for checks, plus the players do not seek to make ability checks (and perhaps seek to avoid them as much as possible), then players know that they have a chance to succeed without rolling and thus they may feel the need for guidance is reduced.

Next, on the "help action" issue, remember that Help action is for combat only. "Working together" is what you do outside of combat and that comes with some requirements. See Basic Rules, page 59. Specifically, a character can only help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. As well, the character only gets a benefit if it actually makes sense that two or more people working on the same task could actually be productive. So while this doesn't get rid of "working together" altogether, it may diminish it some.

Finally, if you really wanted to go the route of limiting the spell in some way, you could just say that guidance only works on tasks reasonably related to the cleric's domain. Anyone trying to recall lore about something could receive guidance from cleric of a god of knowledge. Someone trying to bluff or pick a lock might find some truth in the guidance of a god of the trickster domain. The issue with this method, other than requiring your players' buy-in on the limitation, is that you're going to have to make more judgment calls on edge cases. If I were to go this route, I'd just tell my players what I had in mind and let them make the call as to whether the task fell into the scope of the deity's domain on the assumption they will act in good faith.

But before you go that last route, I would seriously examine how I run the game, especially as it pertains to how the players describe what they want to do and how the DM adjudicates. I'd make changes here, if necessary, before tinkering with the rules.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Guidance is an out-of-combat spell. Because in-combat you wouldn't spend an action to add 1d4 to someone's ability check. If you were willing to spend an action for that, you'd spend it instead using the Help action which would given them advantage on the check, which is worth more than 1d4.

So given it's an out-of-combat thing, there is no real time constraint. 6 seconds to mumble a prayer to your deity is pretty meaningless in terms of time. Nor is the 1d4 game-breaking for DCs.

So...why require the player to do anything? Why not just treat it as effectively an aura of helpfulness. If you're in 30' of the cleric then, when out of combat and not in initiative, all PCs get a +1d4 to their ability checks.

Now there is no distraction. And it doesn't harm immersion - the general blessing of the clerics deity is over the party and things just tend to work slightly better when near him.

I find in practice it is actually emersion breaking and disruptive to the game if spammed on every check. While it is not balance breaking even if subliminal spamming it might cause the GM to raise the DCs of things 1-2 which as a result can nullify the spell or even twist the spell into a penalty instead of boon. Rolling a 1 then becomes a loss and every skill test without it becomes effective at a -2 which means if players separate then one team is hurt by it. The solution if convincing players one way or another to focus on what they think is appropriate and targetable instead of spamming everything. AS I listed above there are a few ways to approach this. Then your cleric doesn't have to be evolved in everything, you don't have "I cast guidance" every other sentence in checking out every room, and since the majority of DCs are rolled normally then the GM is more likely to let the spell do its job with out "escalating" to keep the difficulty up. Some GMs don't escalate but the I have never had a GM that wants to have one spell interrupt the game continuously and cause all the other players to huddle and wait for one player at all times.

 

[Shiroiken]

As a player, I generally don't spam the spell for everyone. I will constantly cast is on myself when in a dangerous area, which for immersion purposes is me muttering prayers for protection from my deity (think of Catholics saying "hail mary" over and over again). The DM just assumes I have it up, unless I have another concentration spell going (which can be pretty common as a Druid). If an obvious check is eminent, and I have the time, I will offer a prayer to the player (disarming a trap, swimming a rapids, climbing a sheer wall, etc). It's nearly worthless in social situation, since you don't know when the roll will happen, and I assume that most NPCs won't take well to me casting a spell in front of them.

As a DM, I have no real immersion issues with it, even if a player is spamming the crap out of it. Of course, I use checks slightly differently than most (I call for them only when I absolutely have to, and only when it's too late to change anything... I also don't allow rechecks). Players may try to spam guidance, but I seldom bother with menial rolls, so they just waste time and look foolish. Because of this my players have pretty much only bother on things that look super obvious (or the caster, whom I just assume is always using it unless stated otherwise). Oh, and NPCs will always assume the worst if you cast a spell in front them... especially if they know it's to help you socially.

 

[5ekyu]

ArtaSoral

As i said to me having players characters work together in 5e to solve out of combat problems - help/guidance etc - is to me a plus, not a frustration.

 

[Mistwell]

I find in practice it is actually emersion breaking and disruptive to the game if spammed on every check. While it is not balance breaking even if subliminal spamming it might cause the GM to raise the DCs of things 1-2 which as a result can nullify the spell or even twist the spell into a penalty instead of boon. Rolling a 1 then becomes a loss and every skill test without it becomes effective at a -2 which means if players separate then one team is hurt by it. The solution if convincing players one way or another to focus on what they think is appropriate and targetable instead of spamming everything. AS I listed above there are a few ways to approach this. Then your cleric doesn't have to be evolved in everything, you don't have "I cast guidance" every other sentence in checking out every room, and since the majority of DCs are rolled normally then the GM is more likely to let the spell do its job with out "escalating" to keep the difficulty up. Some GMs don't escalate but the I have never had a GM that wants to have one spell interrupt the game continuously and cause all the other players to huddle and wait for one player at all times.

It's kinda like you didn't read the post you replied to.

Nobody spammed anything, ever, in what I suggested. Nor did the cleric's player ever say anything, ever.

I am fine if you don't like the solution I proposed...but you don't seem to have any comment on what I proposed and just repeated your post again and vaguely tried to relate it to mine as if they were somehow connected?

 

[ClaytonCross]

It's kinda like you didn't read the post you replied to.

Nobody spammed anything, ever, in what I suggested. Nor did the cleric's player ever say anything, ever.

I am fine if you don't like the solution I proposed...but you don't seem to have any comment on what I proposed and just repeated your post again and vaguely tried to relate it to mine as if they were somehow connected?

I read your post ... I also read the OPs post to which you are replying which sets the context of a specific issue. Part of the issue is:

"My issue though NOT on the technical aspect. The 1d4/ the DC of the check doesn't bother me. My issue is how the cantrips existence affects the immersion/feel of the game. Now, anytime anytime anyone tries to do anything the cleric pipes up saying, “and I cast guidance!" (to make matters worse [although outside the scope of this post] usually someone else will pipe up saying “and I use the help action!”) Already we now have this annoying pocket cleric who is always involved in everything, even situations that should be another character’s time to shine."

Your comment is a reply to that context. So yes, Spamming.

So you are saying your answer does address the OPs concern? If so it would be irrelevant and helpful on the thread.... I don't think so because your addressing spamming here:

"So...why require the player to do anything? Why not just treat it as effectively an aura of helpfulness. If you're in 30' of the cleric then, when out of combat and not in initiative, all PCs get a +1d4 to their ability checks. "

Is the aura, not an attempt to cut down on spamming and to reduce “and I cast guidance!" as an interruption? If its not what function does it provide?

Your entire argument is based around your summery:

"Now there is no distraction. And it doesn't harm immersion - the general blessing of the clerics deity is over the party and things just tend to work slightly better when near him."

My argument is that your argument is in direct opposition to the post and simply denies it as an issue while at the same time targeting that issue. My point is that spam is the issue and timeline is an interruption. The OP is saying having your players rely on the Cleric at all times for all test is a problem and that spam of the spell on all tests is an interruption. You dismiss both then give the cleric the ability do aid everyone at all times in an effort to reduce spam by implying he does have to say it because it is always in effect. Which double his concern making him want to raise DCs and not be involved in every test...

... so your cop out argument of "did you even read my post?"... Back at you... did you read the OPs post or mind? My post is at the heart of your agreement in a vague attempt to help the OP by making his problem worse..... I was trying to point that out with more tact, but if you want to be bluntly rude and through "did you even read my post?" with out reading and understanding my post I guess I have to be more blunt to be clear.

 

[the_redbeard]

But it gets even worse. Often, the party will be in a (out of combat) situation where several different characters will want to use their skills to do something. The thief wants to try to pick the lock on a chest while the ranger sweeps the room for traps and the wizard starts to translate the strange glyphs on the walls. Instead of everyone going about and doing their thing, everyone has to wait for the cleric to come over and give each of them guidance.

5e lacks what B/X and other old school systems have which are guidelines for this kind of exploratory activity - such as searching takes 1 turn (10 minutes) per 10' area. Further, there's almost always some kind of time pressure because (varies by edition and circumstance) random encounters are checked; typically every other turn.

For in dungeon searching, I'd recommend using some kind of explicit time required, and rule that the concentration requirement of Guidance means that the Cleric can't cast another while the first guided task is on-going. So the party could still get +1d4 to all their checks, but they would be adding an element of risk that (I would think) would not be worth the trouble.