D&D 5E Guidance...

[clearstream]

First, why are you allowing advantage on a lock pick. That's not a helpable action in my games.

I was just quickly thinking of examples. Pick lock, possibly not help-able (although two players of rogues with expertise in thieves tools might well disagree!) But many other tasks, likely yes. Of course this will always be up to a DM - one could just squash helping.

3 prof + 3 expertise + 4 dex + d8 bardic inspiration = 12-38. I don't see that as a meaningfully different range than 13-42

IMO this shows that it's actually not guidance that's the problem!

So doing the same exercise without bardic inspiration because we both agree it's a resource and should be able to have strong effects.

Without guidance = 11-30
With guidance = 12-34

Ah, so to get a "nearly impossible" result in tier-2 with +10 and advantage, is about 9% likely*. To get a "nearly impossible" result in tier-2 with +10, guidance and advantage, is about 41% likely. The cantrip is making quite a difference. Even without help, the change in getting a "nearly impossible" result is from 5% to about 18%.

However, it's also important to respect ability spiking via stacked buffs (which led 3rd ed to have that whole buff-types thing, and systems like Earthdawn to apply a rule of three). Guidance, being nigh-costless, is egregious in that it freely pushes everything upward. Above I think where the designers - from the extant text - appeared to have expected the limits to be.

 

[clearstream]

The ability check isn't connected to fictional time at all. A check does not exist in the fiction. It is just a mechanic the DM uses to resolve uncertainty as to the outcome of a task when there's a meaningful consequence for failure. The task is what the DM is adjudicating and the effort that the spell is affecting while the check resolves the outcome. Since the spell lasts up to 1 minute, the task must therefore also be 1 minute or less. The check doesn't occur at the beginning of the task or the end or somewhere in the middle. It's outside the context of the fictional world. The spellcaster cannot pinpoint the moment at which the check is made, nor spam the spell if the task takes longer than one minute.

I like this approach, which is kind of metaphysical. One obvious quibble is that if the checks are indeed not connected to the fiction, how does one know to make them at all? And having made a roll, how does one translate it back into the fiction? If they're strictly unconnected, there should be no way to draw the result of the roll back into the right part of the fiction. Perforce they are connected.

I think then what one ends up saying is that they're not connected in indiscernible ways, and the consequence of those ways is as you detail. The issue with that approach is of course that it can support anything with equal justice, so one perhaps ends up taking neither a mechanical or metaphysical position, but one of pragmatism.

Which seems fine

 

[DND_Reborn]

So... the guidance cantrip. Toward the end of my last campaign the group got pretty tired of it. What, if anything are groups doing about guidance spam?

I ask because I am thinking of making it a level 1 spell.

We removed it from the game as well. We thought of making it a feature for the Cleric, like a weakened form of Bardic Inspiration.

 

[clearstream]

We removed it from the game as well. We thought of making it a feature for the Cleric, like a weakened form of Bardic Inspiration.

What do you think of the level 1 spell option?

 

[iserith]

I like this approach, which is kind of metaphysical. One obvious quibble is that if the checks are indeed not connected to the fiction, how does one know to make them at all?

The DM decides if a check is made. Players just describe the task they attempt and wait for the DM to either narrate the result of the adventurer's action or, if the outcome is uncertain and there's a meaningful consequence for failure, call for a check before doing so.

And having made a roll, how does one translate it back into the fiction? If they're strictly unconnected, there should be no way to draw the result of the roll back into the right part of the fiction. Perforce they are connected.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I think you might have some presuppositions I'm not aware of. Would you clarify?

 

[DND_Reborn]

What do you think of the level 1 spell option?

As a level 1 spell, I would make it a bit better in some ways:

This version affects up to three targets (like bless) and allows them to choose to use the bonus or not, maybe keeping it for another check within the duration.

Think of it like Bless for non-combat stuff. There is no concentration, but the bonus is applied only once during the duration, not all the time. Seems like a fair balance IMO.

 

[clearstream]

I'm not sure what you mean here. I think you might have some presuppositions I'm not aware of. Would you clarify?

I was responding to your words...

The ability check isn't connected to fictional time at all.

I think it can't be unconnected to fictional time, as the DM must be able to associate the result of a check with a temporally ordered event. A check must be made contemporaneously with a fictional event. If they got out of order, that'd be hopeless.

Instead, I think the statement is one about how one chooses to rule checks regardless of if they are connected or unconnected to fictional time / in or not in the fiction.

 

[iserith]

I was responding to your words...

Okay, but I don't understand the response.

I think it can't be unconnected to fictional time, as the DM must be able to associate the result of a check with a temporally ordered event. A check must be made contemporaneously with a fictional event. If they got out of order, that'd be hopeless.

Sure, you're making the check at the table around the time the player describes what he or she wants to do. You're not making it sometime before the player does that or a great deal of time afterward, generally speaking. But the check itself doesn't exist in the game world and doesn't occur at any particular point during the task.

 

[Seramus]

Guidance has V and S components. I talk to the player and establish what that V and S look like, and make them stick with it. It’s obviously a spell and has social consequences.

Most Guidance spam happens because the DM lets the player ignore the V and S and slip it into everything, or gloss over the fact it is a very obvious spell.

 

[Hriston]

So... the guidance cantrip. Toward the end of my last campaign the group got pretty tired of it. What, if anything are groups doing about guidance spam?

I ask because I am thinking of making it a level 1 spell.

Here's my take on this.

First, it's difficult to address this without knowing how your group is "spamming" guidance and how it works at your table.

Second, I think if the DM announces the DC before the d20 roll (ability check) and allows guidance to be cast after the roll, then it will only be cast (and used) in a limited set of circumstances, i.e. when the result of the roll is below but within 4 points of the DC. This places the tension on the d4 roll because it matters to the resolution of the task.