5E [GUIDE] Celestial Link Evoking Radiance Into Creation - CLERIC guide

Snof

Visitor
Isn't the rating of Arcane domain a little harsh? It is purple, yet if you look at what you have given individual features, then it seems a little better. I would personally rate it blue. The wizards cantrips, like booming blade or green flame blade does well for a cleric who only have a single attack. Not to mention potent cantrip on top of that. You now have a mighty attack that doesn't use any of your slots. Even a mid to high levels, a cleric doesn't cast a spell every turn, and you thus have spare room for good spells that uses minor action like, spiritual weapon, or takes more time, like Prayer of Healing. The level 6 feature is also quite decent. With warcaster you also get a dangerous Opportunity attack. When it comes to the spell list, then I find it to be quite bad.

Might be a bit ironic that a cleric of arcane domain is best suited for melee combat. A bit counter intuitive in a sense.
 
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mellored

Explorer
Isn't the rating of Arcane domain a little harsh? It is purple, yet if you look at what you have given individual features, then it seems a little better. I would personally rate it blue. The wizards cantrips, like booming blade or green flame blade does well for a cleric who only have a single attack. Not to mention potent cantrip on top of that. You now have a mighty attack that doesn't use any of your slots. Even a mid to high levels, a cleric doesn't cast a spell every turn, and you thus have spare room for good spells that uses minor action like, spiritual weapon, or takes more time, like Prayer of Healing. The level 6 feature is also quite decent. With warcaster you also get a dangerous Opportunity attack. When it comes to the spell list, then I find it to be quite bad.

Might be a bit ironic that a cleric of arcane domain is best suited for melee combat. A bit counter intuitive in a sense.
I agree GFB/BB do make arcane better, but only that specific build is blue.

Still, i'll update the description.
 

Kithas

Visitor
Even without gfb and bb I think the arcane domain can be great, using shocking grasp or fire bolt you can do plenty of damage. Clerics DO have some good boomy spells too, firestorm and the like, so it's definitely not a bad choice. It's also worth mentioning that this is the best way to get all 3 types of spells (nature, divine, arcane) under one spell casting ability(wis) and with only 2 classes.
 

mellored

Explorer
Even without gfb and bb I think the arcane domain can be great, using shocking grasp or fire bolt you can do plenty of damage. Clerics DO have some good boomy spells too, firestorm and the like, so it's definitely not a bad choice. It's also worth mentioning that this is the best way to get all 3 types of spells (nature, divine, arcane) under one spell casting ability(wis) and with only 2 classes.
The main issue with arcana is their Channel Divinity.

That's a 1-3x per short rest, of not maximizing call lighting, or not restoring HP, or not reading someone's thoughts and planting a suggestion. The other features are decent, but it's lot of power to miss out on.

Unless your actually dealing with those sorts of creatures on a regular basis. Then it's pretty good.
 

Kithas

Visitor
yeah losing the CD is a big deal I agree. I much prefer tempest myself(half sorc).

One small note on Hill Dwarf, I agree it's the best race for clerics, another thing it adds that you didn't mention is the fact that heavy armor doesn't slow you down, meaning you don't need a 13/15 in str.

On another note, as much as you push Con(and I completely agree it's super important) I'm curious as to why the tough feat is so low on your list. +2 health per level is equivalent of a +4 in con. Also this let's you have health like someone with a 24 in con since it doesn't interact with the 20 cap. I would say you should cap your Con first but this would definitely be a close second if survivability is your goal. I would definitely rate this above Heavy armor master.

In regard to savage attacker; Since clerics only have one attack, and SA only works once per turn this actually works %age wise better than on classes with multiple attacks. It may be a good idea for a war cleric(esp with 2+levels in paladin), or nature if going melee. Savage attacker is generally very underrated imo, it only gives you about a .4-.6 per die higher average damage but it makes you have about a 70% chance to have a good damage roll(above average on each die) and lowers your bad rolls to 20-30%, and truly awful rolls are near impossible with the rerolls. Still not amazing but definitely not the worst choice. War cleric/Paladin with this is actually very very good.

In my opinion there is no reason a cleric cannot be a melee tank. They get heavy armor and shields most of the time and your hp can definitely be good enough to hang with fighters and barbarians, vs a barbarian you only have ~40 less health all else equal, ~20 for fighters. So the 2 things that matter to tanking, AC and Health, you are easily on par with. Also things like Spirit Guardians and Thunderwave and excessive healing make you much more valuable as a target, whereas they might just ignore the fighter/barb and go for the squishies.

Another note from my observations. I've played a tempest cleric up til level 5(only switched because the dm and I agreed it would be better for the party) and I plan on playing one again now that storm sorc is official. Clerics, tempest and light atleast, can definitely be competent blasters, there aren't many options as far as spells go(multi into sorc does help with this), but you have the big ones, thunderwave, shatter and call lightning. All of these can be cast with higher slots! An 8th level thunderwave maximized is incredibly devastating(64/32 damage to everything in a 15' cube is nuts) It's also worth mentioning that thunderbolt strike doesn't care where the lightning damage came from, your divine strike now knocks people 10' back, your sorc spells now move people etc. For Wrath of the Storm, 2d8 as a reaction(and push 10' after lvl 6) is definitely good enough late into the game, before level 11 (and then only paladins) no one else can use a reaction to hit that hard, and for an easy trigger too. Opp attacks can at most hit for 2d6+5, you hit for 2d8, definitely not a waste. In your CD at level 10 example, thunderwave maxed is a 48/24(6d8s), outdamaging everything on that list.
All of that said I still don't see much value in cleric after level 9, Intervention is situational at best, and none of the 17 abilities seem worth it. (Fly is a lvl 3 spell that outclasses mine...)

Something else worth mentioning, if you are interested in multiclassing, is the synergy between Thunderbolt Strike and Heart of the Storm(storm cleric lvl 6). Basically this means that every time you cast a spell that does thunder or lighting of lvl1+ you get to add half your sorc level to damage(in aoe around you) and push those damaged by that 10' away from you, no save, no to hit, no questions asked. You also get to choose who you hit, so you can leave your allies out, or you can use it to reposition an ally, shoving him 10' without hurting too badly(3-10 damage) and no opp attacks for him. I plan on playing a Storm sorc/Temp cleric in an upcoming campaign as a mage/tank and am definitely looking forward to it.

Overall I really like your guides and respect your opinions when I see your posts.
sorry for massive wall of text <.<
 
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mellored

Explorer
One small note on Hill Dwarf, I agree it's the best race for clerics, another thing it adds that you didn't mention is the fact that heavy armor doesn't slow you down, meaning you don't need a 13/15 in str.
Good point. I will mention that.

On another note, as much as you push Con(and I completely agree it's super important) I'm curious as to why the tough feat is so low on your list. +2 health per level is equivalent of a +4 in con.
Con gives you +1 both to max HP, and to each HD you spend, so it's almost +2 to HP. But it also boosts your Con saves, meaning your less likely to lose bless.

Also this let's you have health like someone with a 24 in con since it doesn't interact with the 20 cap. I would say you should cap your Con first but this would definitely be a close second if survivability is your goal. I would definitely rate this above Heavy armor master.
At level 5, you need to get hit 4 times in a day for heavy armor to beat the HP from toughness. And again, concentration checks. Also +1 Str.

Though at level 20, you need to be hit 14 times to match toughness's HP. So if your looking to pick up your last feat, then yea.

In regard to savage attacker; Since clerics only have one attack, and SA only works once per turn this actually works %age wise better than on classes with multiple attacks. It may be a good idea for a war cleric(esp with 2+levels in paladin), or nature if going melee. Savage attacker is generally very underrated imo, it only gives you about a .4-.6 per die higher average damage but it makes you have about a 70% chance to have a good damage roll(above average on each die) and lowers your bad rolls to 20-30%, and truly awful rolls are near impossible with the rerolls. Still not amazing but definitely not the worst choice. War cleric/Paladin with this is actually very very good.
You can only reroll the weapons die, not the bonus damage.

So assuming a shield, 1d8 roll twice gives +1.31 damage. Worse then +2 Str/Dex, which also gives you +to hit and other stuff.

In my opinion there is no reason a cleric cannot be a melee tank.
Yes.
Though you need to get sentinal or warcaster, otherwise you arn't much of a threat.

Clerics, tempest and light atleast, can definitely be competent blasters, there aren't many options as far as spells go(multi into sorc does help with this), but you have the big ones, thunderwave, shatter and call lightning.
Yup.

It's also worth mentioning that thunderbolt strike doesn't care where the lightning damage came from, your divine strike now knocks people 10' back
Thunderbolt strike requires lighting. Divine strike is thunder.

Doesn't mix.

All of that said I still don't see much value in cleric after level 9, Intervention is situational at best, and none of the 17 abilities seem worth it. (Fly is a lvl 3 spell that outclasses mine...)
I agree. Cleric's don't have the strongest endgame.

I plan on playing a Storm sorc/Temp cleric in an upcoming campaign as a mage/tank and am definitely looking forward to it.
The main issue is the Wis/Cha split.

But otherwise they should mesh well.

Overall I really like your guides and respect your opinions when I see your posts.
sorry for massive wall of text <.<
I don't mind.

You don't get good at things unless you're willing to fix your mistakes.
 

mellored

Explorer
And lighting lure + thunderbolt strike = pull -> push.

If you team with someone who has good zones, such as cloud of daggers.
 

Kithas

Visitor
Con gives you +1 both to max HP, and to each HD you spend, so it's almost +2 to HP. But it also boosts your Con saves, meaning your less likely to lose bless.
I agree that +2con>tough. The -3 only works on BPS damage, whereas the hp will work on everything. It also requires you to use heavy armor, which not all clerics are proficient in. And the point in str is for the most part wasted :/
You can only reroll the weapons die, not the bonus damage.
Ah, my phb isn't in front of me, I remembered it being able to reroll damage for one weapon attack.
Though you need to get sentinal or warcaster, otherwise you arn't much of a threat.
Massive heals and scary aoe effects/damage should be enough to make the bad guys hesitant to ignore you. Honestly adding 1 reaction that may not even out-damage wrath of the storm doesn't seem like it makes me more of a threat, also with proficiency in con saves after level 11(+4 proficiency, +5 con) you have to take 22+ damage to even have to roll to keep your concentration(1's arent auto-fail on saves), and if you do have to roll it will be an easy pass. The rest of warcaster is really lackluster.
Thunderbolt strike requires lighting. Divine strike is thunder.

Doesn't mix.
Ah right, I always forget that you don't get to pick like with Wrath. Either way Shocking Grasp is better :p
The main issue is the Wis/Cha split.

But otherwise they should mesh well.
Since the only 2 spells that are cleric-only and have a dc/to hit roll are call lightning and destructive wave, both of which are situational(mass groups and high ceilings) I think having a +2/3 in wis should be fine, focusing more on con/cha.
And lighting lure + thunderbolt strike = pull -> push.

If you team with someone who has good zones, such as cloud of daggers.
That is another fun one, shocking grasp, thunderclap, and lightning lure are definitely going to be my bread and butter.
Speaking of which, I could just use my own cloud of daggers...
 
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mellored

Explorer
I agree that +2con>tough. The -3 only works on BPS damage, whereas the hp will work on everything. It also requires you to use heavy armor, which not all clerics are proficient in. And the point in str is for the most part wasted :/
Requiring heavy armor is a bit of a moot point, since you can't take it if you don't have it.
And +1 str still doesn't hurt, since you want 15 for not being slowed (unless your a dwarf).
Str saves are also semi-common, usually grappling.

At higher levels, i agree it's not as good.

Massive heals and scary aoe effects/damage should be enough to make the bad guys hesitant to ignore you.
Everyone will have a reason for the enemy to attack them. You need more then AC.
Healing helps though. Since even if they do take down the wizard, you bring him back up. But you don't have enough spell slots to keep it for up long.

Honestly adding 1 reaction that may not even out-damage wrath of the storm doesn't seem like it makes me more of a threat, also with proficiency in con saves after level 11(+4 proficiency, +5 con) you have to take 22+ damage to even have to roll to keep your concentration(1's arent auto-fail on saves), and if you do have to roll it will be an easy pass. The rest of warcaster is really lackluster.
I wouldn't call advantage on Con saves lackluster. A young red dragon can do 54 damage with his breath weapon, (27-9 = roll of 18). Though it does depend on your DM. Some may simply not want to provoke any kind of OA, so simply standing around may be enough of a threat.

Also, you won't have 20 Con by 11 if you multi-class at cleric 6. Consider casting warding bond on yourself. Then you can auto-pass concentration checks upto 44 damage (roll of 4 against the dragon).

Ah right, I always forget that you don't get to pick like with Wrath. Either way Shocking Grasp is better :p
Assuming you want to knock someone back, yes. You may not if you are trying to be the tank.

Since the only 2 spells that are cleric-only and have a dc/to hit roll are call lightning and destructive wave, both of which are situational(mass groups and high ceilings) I think having a +2/3 in wis should be fine, focusing more on con/cha.
Yea, that's fine.
You can reasonably make a cleric without Wis, so you can miss a few points. Also things that deal 1/2 damage arn't as hurt by a low DC.

That is another fun one, shocking grasp, thunderclap, and lightning lure are definitely going to be my bread and butter.
Speaking of which, I could just use my own cloud of daggers...
Quicken cloud of daggers let's you use a cantrip to shove someone in right away, taking damage on your turn, and then again at the start of their turn.

I'm just imagining 4 storm/tempests surrounding a guy dragging him back and forth though a few clouds.
Death by a thousand cuts.
 

Kithas

Visitor
Requiring heavy armor is a bit of a moot point, since you can't take it if you don't have it.
And +1 str still doesn't hurt, since you want 15 for not being slowed (unless your a dwarf).
Str saves are also semi-common, usually grappling.
Don't get me wrong I like HAM too, I just think it can be overrated :/ I have it on my lvl 17 (15/2) fighter/barb and it's very helpful.
Everyone will have a reason for the enemy to attack them you need more then AC.
Healing helps though. Since even if they do take down the wizard, you bring him back up. But you don't have enough spell slots to keep it for up long.
As far as blasting I'm going to hit as hard if not harder than the wizard :/ that may not mean they focus on me but hopefully it means they die if they don't. That's the plan at least, plans only last until initiative is rolled generally.
I wouldn't call advantage on Con saves lackluster. A young red dragon can do 54 damage with his breath weapon, (27-9 = roll of 18). Though it does depend on your DM. Some may simply not want to provoke any kind of OA, so simply standing around may be enough of a threat.
Having advantage on that roll still only means I have less than 30% chance to keep my concentration, it is better it just feels like upping my chances and still probably failing. If I fail my save on a 1 or 2 per encounter I'm ok with recasting.
Also, you won't have 20 Con by 11 if you multi-class at cleric 6. Consider casting warding bond on yourself. Then you can auto-pass concentration checks upto 44 damage (roll of 4 against the dragon).
I'm going to split 7/4 by 11, not sure which way, I'm leaning sorc right now for Storm Sphere. I used a 16 on a roll for my con, +2(Hill dwarf) and one of my 2 asi's will get me to 20 by level 6(4/2), not sure for my second one, I have a short wish-list but I'll probably decide closer to when it happens.
Assuming you want to knock someone back, yes. You may not if you are trying to be the tank.
Very true, I'll have to guage that in practice. hopefully it works well, otherwise in those situations I'll probably just thunderclap.
Quicken cloud of daggers let's you use a cantrip to shove someone in right away, taking damage on your turn, and then again at the start of their turn.

I'm just imagining 4 storm/tempests surrounding a guy dragging him back and forth though a few clouds.
Death by a thousand cuts.
That does sound really silly XD
I'll definitely keep that one in mind.
 

mellored

Explorer
Don't get me wrong I like HAM too, I just think it can be overrated :/ I have it on my lvl 17 (15/2) fighter/barb and it's very helpful.
At level 17, yea it's lost a lot of it's power. I would only rate it blue, maybe black at that level. But most games are lower level.

As far as blasting I'm going to hit as hard if not harder than the wizard :/ that may not mean they focus on me but hopefully it means they die if they don't.
But your already a lot harder to hit then the wizard.

But, it depends on the DM and the party. I've seen some DM's who didn't want to provoke an OA from a wizard in order to stop a sorcerer with twin haste.

Other's have no problem rushing past the fighter in a attempt to kill the wizard.

Having advantage on that roll still only means I have less than 30% chance to keep my concentration, it is better it just feels like upping my chances and still probably failing. If I fail my save on a 1 or 2 per encounter I'm ok with recasting.
Warcaster is by no means required.
But it's something to consider.

I'm going to split 7/4 by 11, not sure which way, I'm leaning sorc right now for Storm Sphere. I used a 16 on a roll for my con, +2(Hill dwarf) and one of my 2 asi's will get me to 20 by level 6(4/2), not sure for my second one, I have a short wish-list but I'll probably decide closer to when it happens.
I would go cleric 6/sorcerer 5.

That gives you a second channel divinity, and level 3 spells from both classes. Cleric's level 4 spells aren't too special, and heart of the storm won't be that much damage since you split classes.

Though (twinned) polymorph and greater invisibility is pretty potent for sorcerer. But that's more support, not blaster.
 

Kithas

Visitor
MelloRed said:
I would go cleric 6/sorcerer 5.

That gives you a second channel divinity, and level 3 spells from both classes. Cleric's level 4 spells aren't too special, and heart of the storm won't be that much damage since you split classes.

Though (twinned) polymorph and greater invisibility is pretty potent for sorcerer. But that's more support, not blaster.
I like the idea of having level 3 spells from both. I think my fear is getting really behind on my highest spell known. By 11 non-multiclassed casters will have 6th level spells, while I will only have 3rd. Our slots are the same but my selection and relative spell-power is much smaller. I was hoping to only be 1-2 levels known behind.
Also I am more interested in the level 2-4 spells from sorc than I am the level 3 spells in cleric. Call lightning and D-wave is really all I want for damage as far as spells known go. And I think that Storm sphere outclasses call lightning, it works off my bonus action instead of my main action, leaving me to attack or cast more without spending sorc points, I also get area-denial/free damage from it. Plus I can do it indoors!
That said, for progression I was looking at 4/2 by level 6, 7/2 by 9 and 7/4 at 11, 7/6 by 13 and pick and choose from there. This gets me access to the cleric spells I care about early enough, while getting the sorc spells only a little behind schedule, also keeping me only 1 level behind normal for my first asi,and 2 for the second.

On heart of the storm;
No the damage doesn't start out massive and will never really get to it's max with multiclassing. But compare it to the abilities that let you add your ability score to the damage of your spells. Those will generally add only 3-5 damage to your spell per target per cast. That is true most of the time for Heart too, considering I plan on being up-close and personal most of the time, 10' radius is plenty to reach everyone I want to, and even some people I don't hit with the main spell. I consider it well-worth getting early.
 

Snof

Visitor
With those new cantrips, namely Booming Blade and Green-flame blade, you have a few good options that should be mentioned. For example I could very well imagine a cleric of Nature domain, or even Life, multiclass/dip into a warlock to get those cantrips. Maybe even three levels of fighter (Eldritch Knight) to get them. They grant quite a hefty boost to damage, without spending precious spells. I think it should be mentioned, as Arcane domain cleric isn't the only one who want those cantrips. For those who do multiclass, or use a feat to get them, I would like to say it does synergy well with Divine Strike.
 

Snof

Visitor
Staying within the same theme as my previous post. I was figuring about making a Cleric, and this is how it goes:

Hill Dwarf:
Starting stats after racials: Str 10 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 8

Level 1: Fighter 1: Fighting Style: Defense
Level 2: Cleric 1/Fighter 1: Nature Domain: Cantrip: Shillelagh
Level 3: Cleric 2/Fighter 1:
Level 4: Cleric 3/Fighter 1:
Level 5: Cleric 4/Fighter 1: Feat: Warcaster
Level 6: Cleric 5/Fighter 1:
Level 7: Cleric 5/Fighter 2:
Level 8: Cleric 5/Fighter 3: Eldritch Knight: Cantrips, Booming Blade, Greenflame Blade: 1 Level spells: Shield, Magic Missils, Find Familiar.
Level 9: Cleric 6/Fighter 3:
Level 10: Cleric 7/Fighter 3
Level 11: Cleric 8/Fighter 3: +1 Con +1 Wis
Level 12: Cleric 8/Fighter 4: Feat: Resilience (Wisdom)
Level 13: Cleric 9/Fighter 4:
Cleric 14: Cleric 10/Fighter 4:

Keep on adding Cleric levels. Could later on add Sentinel, or just wisdom.

He is obviously wearing plate, a shield, and a club with shillelagh. Such a build would be really tanky, with awesome defenses, and high hit points, and great concentration saves. He can even use shield/dampen element to boost himself. In addition, he has a deadly opportunity attack, and deals good amount of damage with his single attack, that uses wisdom, thanks to divine strike and Booming Blade. You top it with all the support a cleric normally have.

What do you think?

Maybe I do it in different order. Get sentinel earlier, drop Resilience and so forth. But the basic idea seems really good to me. Warcaster is important both for concentration, AND to be able to cast shield.
 
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mellored

Explorer
With those new cantrips, namely Booming Blade and Green-flame blade, you have a few good options that should be mentioned. For example I could very well imagine a cleric of Nature domain, or even Life, multiclass/dip into a warlock to get those cantrips. Maybe even three levels of fighter (Eldritch Knight) to get them. They grant quite a hefty boost to damage, without spending precious spells. I think it should be mentioned, as Arcane domain cleric isn't the only one who want those cantrips. For those who do multiclass, or use a feat to get them, I would like to say it does synergy well with Divine Strike.
For some reason i was thinking they where stat dependent. You are right that it works for any of the clerics.

I will update.
 

mellored

Explorer
Staying within the same theme as my previous post. I was figuring about making a Cleric, and this is how it goes:
Seems fine.

Also i'm tempted to try this with the trickery domain for advantage.
Or death cleric, for some good additional damage.
 

Snof

Visitor
Quick question. As indicated by the guide, Disciple of Life do increase the healing of each goodberry, but how does blessed healer synergy with goodberry? Will each berry your allies take, heal you for hit points too?

Anyway. You do say that Disciple of Life feature (life domain) is really good with say; goodberry. I ask you therefore if you would you rank this domain a bit higher with magic initiate goodberry/shillelagh? I would rank it blue. A melee support clerics has as of SCAG, got a lot better thanks to BB and GFB. I cant imagine from a power perspective dropping those. All its features is good, none of it is great, and none of it is bad, and its divine strike is radiant, a nice pluss in my book. In long adventures where each battle is more about attrition, than pure raw power, this domain is awesome. Spell list might be a bit boring, but not enough to drop it down to black imo.

Secondly; I dont get why Trickery domain is ranked sky blue? Its Channel Divinity seems to just be ok, if you can actually deceive your enemies. It takes a whole action to get out and going, lasts a minute, and it even requires your concentration to keep up. That means no bless, no spirit guardians and no blade barrier, as they compete with your concentration. It even takes your bonus action just to move it around, and from my experience, bonus action comes in handy for a cleric. It doesn't even grant advantage to your allies, but only you, if both are adjacent to it, and as a cleric, you dont always attack. One strike at the duplicate and the enemy knows, right? Guess this is very DM dependent. As for blessing of the trickster; it can have its benefits, but adventure dependent. I would prefer heavy armor proficiency, especially considering it got divine strike, and NOT potent spellcasting. Oh and divine strike deals poison damage, the worst kind of damage. From my perspective, its only saving grace is its spell list, but that is not even enough to give it a rating of black. Might be good for a dip for other classes, but beyond that... heh???? From my perspective it is black if you can deceive monsters, and purple/red if you cant. Either way, I cannot see how this is sky blue.

As for death domain. Is it really Sky Blue? Yes it does have a great Channel Divinity, but reaper and Divine Strike kinda competes with each other. I prefer a bit more focus. Until level 17, it doesn't have that much going for it, beyond channel divinity. And what it does have going for it at level 17, is double vampiric touch. Am I missing something. This domain does not seem sky blue to me.
 

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