5E [GUIDE] Dealing Death: Handbook of the True Assassin

SubDude

Explorer
Sorry i ment 17 (edited my first post and fixed that)

And yes my wisdom is high due to monk giving me bonus AC from it due to Unarmored Defense

So yeah I'm looking for advice on my last 3 levels (or more if someone can provide a good argument for not going all the way to 11 monk)
I've recently discovered something that might fit your build as well. You've got Ranger 3, so you're half-way there. Go to Ranger 4, grab the feat, then add Paladin 2. Ranger 4 and Paladin 2 combine to give you 6 spell slots with which to smite for a relatively small investment. Of course, adding Paladin makes it a very, very MAD build!

That would make your build in total: Shadow Monk 11 / Assassin 3 / Gloom Stalker 4 / Paladin 2.
 

SubDude

Explorer
Why nobody here has mentioned the "Oath of Treachery" Paladin? It's thematically related to a roguish character, and her synergies are awesome for a true assassin, both archetype features and bonus spells are extremely useful...
Is that from UA? I feel like that is from UA.
 

Gladius Legis

Adventurer
Oath of Treachery is from UA. It was one of the failed attempts at a Paladin subclass that didn't make it into Xanathar's, and I really hope it doesn't make it into any official material, because it was both conceptually stupid and mechanically broken.

Also this guide sucks, I regret even writing it way back, yada yada, let it die plz.
 
IMHO it is not conceptually stupid, it summons back the old concept of blackguards that is far away from the DMG's Oathbreaker, which looks like more than a death Knight or something that has to do with undeads and corruption.
If you all remember in 3rd edition Blackguards class had the sneak attack progression and garden variety interactions with poison and roguish mechanics.
I think that they just tried to keep up the concept here, without going out from patterns of archetypes, but actually the oath of Treachery should have been the Blackguard class.
So it's not a stupid concept per se, it seems more stupid to mark a variant of a class in this way just because it disgusts you.. >D

p.s. Apart from the insane damage of poison, thing that can be easily balanced, I don't see any broken mechanic
 
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Elfcrusher

Adventurer
Has anybody mentioned Assassin 17 / Grave Domain 2?

Assuming your DM lets you Channel Divinity without breaking stealth (or even if he/she doesn't...there are still scenarios in which this will work) you could get a whopping 80d6 + 5 in a single attack, once per rest. And if you miss you still get a second chance, with advantage, to do it. That's an average of 285, max of 485, and you only have to hit once out of four attack rolls. (With the usual caveat about Con saves, of course.)

Heck, just at level 5 it's 12d6 + stat mod.

It's too bad (or a good thing, depending on your p.o.v.) that poison damage dice aren't affected by the crit. This build is ideal for poison because it's all focused on one hit. The potential would have been for just over 1,000 points of damage (172d6).
 

Istbor

Explorer
Has anybody mentioned Assassin 17 / Grave Domain 2?

Assuming your DM lets you Channel Divinity without breaking stealth (or even if he/she doesn't...there are still scenarios in which this will work) you could get a whopping 80d6 + 5 in a single attack, once per rest. And if you miss you still get a second chance, with advantage, to do it. That's an average of 285, max of 485, and you only have to hit once out of four attack rolls. (With the usual caveat about Con saves, of course.)

Heck, just at level 5 it's 12d6 + stat mod.

It's too bad (or a good thing, depending on your p.o.v.) that poison damage dice aren't affected by the crit. This build is ideal for poison because it's all focused on one hit. The potential would have been for just over 1,000 points of damage (172d6).
Oh really? I was not aware that poison added to a weapon on a critical attack is unaffected. I thought you had to double those dice as well. That is at least how a DM played some assassins in Princes of the Apocalypse. They landed a surprise arrow right into the eye slits of our Paladin's helm. I was pretty epic and frightening.
 

SubDude

Explorer
Has anybody mentioned Assassin 17 / Grave Domain 2?

Assuming your DM lets you Channel Divinity without breaking stealth (or even if he/she doesn't...there are still scenarios in which this will work) you could get a whopping 80d6 + 5 in a single attack, once per rest. And if you miss you still get a second chance, with advantage, to do it. That's an average of 285, max of 485, and you only have to hit once out of four attack rolls. (With the usual caveat about Con saves, of course.)

Heck, just at level 5 it's 12d6 + stat mod.

It's too bad (or a good thing, depending on your p.o.v.) that poison damage dice aren't affected by the crit. This build is ideal for poison because it's all focused on one hit. The potential would have been for just over 1,000 points of damage (172d6).
Not seeing 80d6.

I get 10d6 for the short sword and sneak attack, doubled due to surprise, then doubled again due to the Path to the Grave, but that "only" gets me to 40d6. Am I missing something else?
 

jgsugden

Adventurer
Oh really? I was not aware that poison added to a weapon on a critical attack is unaffected. I thought you had to double those dice as well. That is at least how a DM played some assassins in Princes of the Apocalypse. They landed a surprise arrow right into the eye slits of our Paladin's helm. I was pretty epic and frightening.
If there is a saving throw, the poison dice are intended to not add. If the poison is automatic with no save, it does add.

As for the cleric of the grave - you're better off having that cleric ally. Causally assuming you can get an action in , stay hidden, and then attack is a lot.

For the assassin concept, I'm looking for ways to deliver that crit over and over by having a surprise and then ending the combat, but attacking again before they can heal. To me, that is a bow long ranged attacker.
 
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Istbor

Explorer
If there is a saving throw, the poison dice are intended to not add. If the poison is automatic with no save, it does add.

As for the cleric of the grave - you're better off having that cleric ally. Causally assuming you can get an action in , stay hidden, and then attack is a lot.

For the assassin concept, I'm looking for ways to deliver that crit over and over by having a surprise and then ending the combat, but attacking again before they can heal. To me, that is a bow long ranged attacker.
Thanks for that clarification. And that does make a certain kind of sense. I'll remember this.
 

Elfcrusher

Adventurer
Not seeing 80d6.

I get 10d6 for the short sword and sneak attack, doubled due to surprise, then doubled again due to the Path to the Grave, but that "only" gets me to 40d6. Am I missing something else?
Assassin Capstone doubles it again (sometimes).

EDIT: I keep thinking how fun it would be to actually dump 80d6 on the table. And then, "Hmm...that's below average, I guess I'll use my Savage Attacker feat to re-roll..."

EDIT 2: Apparently Savage Attacker does not apply to bonus dice, such as sneak attack, only "weapon" dice. So it wouldn't work anyway.
 
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Why is nobody actually updating this guide? I don't see any gloom stalker levels or stuff like that. How can you avoid to take it into account?

Edit.: it also would be nice to develop a section where you give piece of advice about how to set up assassination/surprise, thing that should be important seen that's the core of this class.
 
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SubDude

Explorer
Assassin Capstone doubles it again (sometimes).

EDIT: I keep thinking how fun it would be to actually dump 80d6 on the table. And then, "Hmm...that's below average, I guess I'll use my Savage Attacker feat to re-roll..."
Thanks, I did miss that. And that would be both funny and annoying!
 

SubDude

Explorer
Why is nobody actually updating this guide? I don't see any gloom stalker levels or stuff like that. How can you avoid to take it into account?

Edit.: it also would be nice to develop a section where you give piece of advice about how to set up assassination/surprise, thing that should be important seen that's the core of this class.
There are a lot of ideas here, including at least five posts that reference either Gloom Stalker or the UA Deepstalker (45, 56, 58, 61, 77).
 

Fenris-77

Explorer
The Ranger 3 dip to gain Dread Ambush is almost a must have, as it's the only way you can even partially replace the Fighter's capstone 4th attack. Assuming you are trying to maximize both attacks and dice to crit with. Fighter11/Rogue 5/Ranger 4 can max nova something silly like max 700 damage in round one when using action surge.

Just in case I'm mathing wrong, here's the crunchy bits using a longbow:

You have 3 Attacks +1 from Dread Ambush, plus you have 5 superiority dice and an extra d8 on the Dread Ambush attack (twice with AS) which gives you an additional d8 on 7 of 8 attacks. So assuming surprise and thus crit and using sharpshooter to -5/+10 with Dex 20 (and hunters mark, just for giggles)

2d8 weapon/2d8 Superiority/2d6 Hunter's Mark/6d6 Backstab +15 = max 95, which you do 4 times so max 380

Then you action surge and do it again, and the only difference is you don't get a superiority d8 on the second last attack, so max 371, for a total of 751.

You have the ASIs to get both Sharpshooter and Elven Accuracy, so hitting a lot happens most rounds.

Am I doing something wrong there?

When I do the build without that fourth attack from Dread Ambush I can't find a way to get the nova damage anywhere close to as high.
 
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SubDude

Explorer
The Ranger 3 dip to gain Dread Ambush is almost a must have, as it's the only way you can even partially replace the Fighter's capstone 4th attack. Assuming you are trying to maximize both attacks and dice to crit with. Fighter11/Rogue 5/Ranger 4 can max nova something silly like max 700 damage in round one when using action surge.

Just in case I'm mathing wrong, here's the crunchy bits using a longbow:

You have 3 Attacks +1 from Dread Ambush, plus you have 5 superiority dice and an extra d8 on the Dread Ambush attack (twice with AS) which gives you an additional d8 on 7 of 8 attacks. So assuming surprise and thus crit and using sharpshooter to -5/+10 with Dex 20 (and hunters mark, just for giggles)

2d8 weapon/2d8 Superiority/2d6 Hunter's Mark/6d6 Backstab +15 = max 95, which you do 4 times so max 380

Then you action surge and do it again, and the only difference is you don't get a superiority d8 on the second last attack, so max 371, for a total of 751.

You have the ASIs to get both Sharpshooter and Elven Accuracy, so hitting a lot happens most rounds.

Am I doing something wrong there?

When I do the build without that fourth attack from Dread Ambush I can't find a way to get the nova damage anywhere close to as high.
First mistake, you only get Sneak Attack once per turn. That eliminates 42d6 from your Action Surged Nova Strike above. So 751 become 499.

Second "mistake" is you're using max damage instead of average die rolls. All the other builds compute based on average die rolls, so in order to make a comparison you'll need to do likewise. Its also a lot more realistic. If you're rolling two dice, maxing them both is uncommon but possible. The odds against maxing all 48 of those dice you're rolling are astronomical.

Edit to add minor other thing: the superiority dice are d10's at Fighter 11, so with five of those you will add 10 more "max" or 5 more average damage.
 
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Fenris-77

Explorer
First mistake, you only get Sneak Attack once per turn. That eliminates 42d6 from your Action Surged Nova Strike above. So 751 become 499.

Second "mistake" is you're using max damage instead of average die rolls. All the other builds compute based on average die rolls, so in order to make a comparison you'll need to do likewise. Its also a lot more realistic. If you're rolling two dice, maxing them both is uncommon but possible. The odds against maxing all 48 of those dice you're rolling are astronomical.

Edit to add minor other thing: the superiority dice are d10's at Fighter 11, so with five of those you will add 10 more "max" or 5 more average damage.
Well that's a relief. The damage seemed too high but I couldn't figure out where'd I'd muffed the math. A hint over 500 seems like lots anyway. I bet I missed this because my 5e group doesn't actually have a rogue in it, despite being totally stealthy, so I've spent way less time getting granular with the class features there. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up.

And I used max damage on purpose. If I'd wanted to compare novas I'd obviously use averages, and the averages here actually work out quite well because of weight of attacks and a strong static modifier (and I get the odds, honest). However, if you want someone to think "jesus murphy, that can't be right! I'll check the math.." then posting ridiculous max numbers usually gets that done more quickly.
 

Jaboii

Visitor
Thank you so much for making this it's absolutely amazing!! I was thinking of using the Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Paladin (Vengeance) 13 in my group (I'll make him a gentleman who always wears a suit but kills absolutely everything), so in what order do you think is the best to level him up?
Ex.
1. Rogue (1)
2. Rogue (2)
3. Fighter (1)
4. Rogue (3)
etc
 

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