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Guiding players to more sandbox-y play?

S'mon

Legend
I see, so the idea is that it's innate to some players to just be more passive, "go along for the ride" types. I suppose I was thinking of it as a player maturation spectrum where, as new players we begin passive and looking for the railroad, and then we mature and become more interested in the sandbox. But maybe you guys are right, these are just fundamentally different mindsets about the game.

Yes, I definitely don't see this natural progression from passive to active. My son Bill is 6, he loves to take the bull by the horns and seize command of the situation even while I'm attempting
to read the boxed text out to him. I also see players who start out active but get beaten
down by linear scenarios and railroading GMs, so they adopt a passive mentality to cope.
And I see experienced players who aggressively demand to be spoon-fed an adventure and not have to 'search for the fun' by making their own decisions re exploration etc.

If you have a beaten-down type player, maybe you can 'heal' them and persuade them
that it's ok to take the initiative in your game. But if the players prefer the passive stance they won't change and will resent your attempts to change them.
 

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S'mon

Legend
So, I guess the take-aways are...
  • Ask directly what style of game the players want: episodic railroad or sandboxy campaign. Then deliver that to them.
  • Try providing 2-3 adventure options and see what happens.
  • But keep in mind that many players are biased against DM claims of "freedom" in their campaigns.
  • And bear in mind these are fundamental differences between players, which probably will not change.

Does that about cover it?

Sounds good. :D

But since you do have at least 1 active player, why not just cater to him and let him
drive things? My sandbox campaigns have tended to end up that way anyway,
with the one alpha-personality player ending up as the star of the show.
 

MJS

First Post
Start with a railroad, like the classic caravan escort. Things go :):):):):):) in the middle of the plains. There are mountains to the north, a cursed forest far to the south, the nearest cities are weeks' east or west.
 

pemerton

Legend
I suppose I was thinking of it as a player maturation spectrum where, as new players we begin passive and looking for the railroad, and then we mature and become more interested in the sandbox.

<snip>

Ask directly what style of game the players want: episodic railroad or sandboxy campaign. Then deliver that to them.
I think that, by framing the issue as a railroad/sandbox spectrum, you may be slightly obscuring what I think might be a more productive approach. A sandbox is about the players choosing from among a suite of game elements you offer them. It seems fairly clear your group aren't that interested in that. But given what you've said about their readiness to innovate at adventure level, I woud be trying to build a non-sandbox player driven campaign - ie one where you bring the action to them, but it's the action that they are pushing towards rather than action that you are railroading them into.

In other words, the standard indie-game model. At least in my experience, it can appeal to players who aren't that interested in world exploration.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
And I see experienced players who aggressively demand to be spoon-fed an adventure and not have to 'search for the fun' by making their own decisions re exploration etc.
I fear this is the way my group leans.

As an aside, it's funny what you said about players coping with oppressive railroad-y DMs by becoming mo passive. I feel like I need to cope with passive players by...I dont know...becoming more oppressive?

Sounds good. :D

But since you do have at least 1 active player, why not just cater to him and let him
drive things? My sandbox campaigns have tended to end up that way anyway,
with the one alpha-personality player ending up as the star of the show.
Because, like me, it's hard for him to be one man carrying the show. It's the dynamic of interacting with other active players that makes it fun, same as acting dramatically in character. If you're the only one at the table doing it, it falls flat and you feel silly.

I think that, by framing the issue as a railroad/sandbox spectrum, you may be slightly obscuring what I think might be a more productive approach. A sandbox is about the players choosing from among a suite of game elements you offer them. It seems fairly clear your group aren't that interested in that. But given what you've said about their readiness to innovate at adventure level, I woud be trying to build a non-sandbox player driven campaign - ie one where you bring the action to them, but it's the action that they are pushing towards rather than action that you are railroading them into.

In other words, the standard indie-game model. At least in my experience, it can appeal to players who aren't that interested in world exploration.
Something like Fiasco, right? With very explicit strong scene framing? And then within the context of the adventure, let them go hog wild.

Yes, I see the difference, and it's what drove me to begin the campaign with a "Bang!" event and strong scene framing, because I knew most of the group's proclivities to a more passive style of play.

It's when we are at a crossroads, one adventure ends and another is about to begin, that the trouble arises. I feel torn about doing strong scene framing like: After days in town, you catch wind of a wendigo and set forth to hunt it down, hoping to claim the bounty and rescue the townsfolk. We pick up with your adventures a week into tracking the beast thru frosty mountains." While it might work better with this passive group than a sandbox, it also robs them of agency and assumes motivations for their PCs - two things which I understand as fun-killers.

I guess I'm just having trouble handling such a passive/reactive group of players. So far everyone says they're having fun, so maybe the only one with an issue is me. I am thinking of passing around a player questionnaire next session with leading questions/multiple choice to see if I can tease out more of about what they would like.
 

pemerton

Legend
Something like Fiasco, right? With very explicit strong scene framing? And then within the context of the adventure, let them go hog wild.
I don't know much about Fiasco other than it's existence, but I'm going to go with "Yes". (My own ideas are based on Burning Wheel, Marvel Heroic RP, HeroWars/Quest, Maelstrom Storytelling and the collected Forge writings of Ron Edwards - [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] has called it "pemertonian scene-framing"!)

It's when we are at a crossroads, one adventure ends and another is about to begin, that the trouble arises. I feel torn about doing strong scene framing like: After days in town, you catch wind of a wendigo and set forth to hunt it down, hoping to claim the bounty and rescue the townsfolk. We pick up with your adventures a week into tracking the beast thru frosty mountains." While it might work better with this passive group than a sandbox, it also robs them of agency and assumes motivations for their PCs - two things which I understand as fun-killers.
I'd do the intro/transition differently, then. After an adventure, half the group are relaxing at the Green Dragon inn when their favourite local ranger NPC comes rushing in urgently "There's a wendigo in the woods!" The other half are shopping in the market and talking to some friends, and in the conversation it emerges that their friendly forest hermit has become more and more reclusive, and no one has seen him sense he went off at the last full moon to perform some strange woodland rite.

Now the group have to make a decision - is the wendigo their enemy, to be killed? Or their friend transformed, to be rescued? (I can't remember the details of D&D wendigo's, so in setting this up have been drawing on the X-Men Wendigo adventure that came not long after death of Phoenix - around #141, I think.)
 

Quickleaf

Legend
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] Yeah, here is my quandary:

Doing a bunch of "bangs" to start off adventures gets old fast; it stays fresh when used sparingly.

But presenting softer, less urgent starts often leads to the group dawdling for lack of motivation or being indecisive.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
Yeah, and open-ened questions like "What do you want?" can make some players think you're not prepared and you're desperate for ideas.
I think in the case of my group, there's no doubt that I'm brimming with ideas or that I can improv DM. Open-ended questions like this are generally met with silence or non-committal answers because...well I'm guessing here...because everyone is so busy that just getting to play D&D is enough. They just want a traditional D&D experience, roll some dice, pull off some zany stunts, exploration ruins, some roleplaying, and lots of bad jokes and puns.

I'm thinking since our group composition recently changd that I'm going to put together a questionnaire (which I'll hand out to be filled out start of next session). Any recommendations for the types of leading (NOT open-ended questions I should ask)?
 

pemerton

Legend
Doing a bunch of "bangs" to start off adventures gets old fast; it stays fresh when used sparingly.
This might be a place where we have a slight difference of opinion and experience - if in doubt, I always go for the bang!

Once every few months one of the players will make an out-of-character remark about remarkable coincidences; or will reflect that in over 4 years of play the PCs have gained over 20 levels but less than a year has passed in-game; but I find those sorts of verismilitude-busting moments are a small price to pay.
 

Dwimmerlied

First Post
I'm thinking since our group composition recently changd that I'm going to put together a questionnaire (which I'll hand out to be filled out start of next session). Any recommendations for the types of leading (NOT open-ended questions I should ask)?

Actually, maybe this kind of thing isn't such a bad idea. If the only thing they get from you bothering to put out a questionnaire is that you have an objective when you put questions or ssituations to them, they may take that on board and begin to embrace it? Its hard for me to offer questions that can be taken seriously, because it depends on the nature of the dialogue you tend to have with these guys, but questions such as "What qualities are essential in a good DM?", "What's the difference between a Sandbox and Railroad?" might draw interesting insight.

I think that your summation of the thread at the very least reflects my thoughts on the matter. Sux tho because its clear that you have a lot of creative energy and your players may not be of they type needed.

If your sandbox style depends on a lot of improv skill, there isn't too much to lose; keep your ideas on the table while you cater for the railroad style they are biting on for now, but don't give up. Keep offering hooks for greater player involvement, and be ready to roll with the refusal to bite.
 

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