GURPS Fantasy / Dungeon Fantasy (and beyond)

[Argyle King]

For me personally, I chose GURPS over Hero because I liked how GURPS handled gear and equipment better.

I've also found that I have an easier time starting from a grounded/real-ish baseline and then adding fantasy stuff on top of that, as opposed to when I start with something more gonzo and try to add some plausibility back in.

In that same vein, I have found that the modular design of GURPS mostly does what it advertises and actually does a good job of being modular. So much so that I have been able to incorporate elements of other games (Edge of the Empire & D&D 4E) into how I handle done things in GURPS. Doing so hasn't broken the system.

I've mostly played GURPS 4th Edition, but I've briefly dabbled in 3rd Edition. I still buy 3rd Edition books because they can be used with GURPS 4th Edition -often with very minimal work.

As far as Dungeon Fantasy goes, I feel that a lower power level is better for teaching the game to a new group. That's why I suggested the products from Gaming Ballistic. Don't get me wrong; I still highly enjoy Dungeon Fantasy, but it starts at a point that would be akin to trying to throw 3rd-4th level D&D characters at a new group.

Even if you want to run a more gritty fantasy game at a lower point total, the Dungeon Fantasy boxed set (as well as the pdfs) are valuable products to show worked examples of how something can be done in GURPS, without needing to sift through all the options in Basic Set.

At some point, I should start a (+) thread to post various powers, abilities, and racial/species templates that I've made for GURPS.

 

[Thomas Shey]

So I have Hero/Fantasy Hero and GURPS/Dungeon Fantasy but have only read them. Anyone with experience able to say how they play compared to each other?

I can perhaps talk a little bit about GURPS fantasy in general, or GURPS in general compared to Hero, but while I own GDF I've done nothing but read it fairly casually.

The most basic think you have to understand about the two game systems out the gate is though they can look somewhat similar from a distance, they have different baked in biases.

GURPS is an evolutionary descendent of The Fantasy Trip, a fairly gritty RPG evolved from a pair of combat games (Melee and Wizard); there are thing you can do to toggle them, and though it avoids some of the extremes that some gritty fantasy games fall victim to, you have to do a lot of attachment of optional rules to it to get a very high-heroic feel at all. Its also in my opinion, overly fussy in some ways (you can see the defense of the 1 second rounds above, but I'm unconvinced it serves the purposes intended well enough to justify the attention it demands. But I may also be biased because I saw it in use in modern period contexts where there's a lot of incentive to use every second if you can).

Hero is derived from Champions, a superhero game, and it leans very much into the heroic mode. Contrary to what some will tell you, it doesn't intrinsically feel like superheroes everywhere, but it does tend to bias toward cinematic pretty heavily (as an example, in a game with any armor at all, it is significantly easier to knock someone out than kill them). Some people consider the speed chart overly fussy though in heroic games its not really all that hard to handle. Its a bit easier to customize your magic systems in it, but that should not be interpreted to mean its actually easy.

 

[dbm]

So I have Hero/Fantasy Hero and GURPS/Dungeon Fantasy but have only read them. Anyone with experience able to say how they play compared to each other?

I tried to learn Hero a few years back, using it to run a Champions campaign for a few months, and ultimately we decided the learning curve was too high for us. If I had picked up Hero 20 years ago that might have been a different outcome.

Hero is a more tightly defined game system than GURPS in my opinion, with a very solid power framework that underpins most of everything. GURPS has a mix of value systems it uses for different elements, with some based on estimated real-world complexity (skills) while stats are based on game value, and advantages use a mix of game advantage and game scarcity (e.g. Combat Reflexes is priced lower than the sum of its parts as it is a common feature of adventurous characters). That makes it easier to min-max GURPS characters in game-damaging ways (I wouldn’t go as far as to say game breaking). There are more / less efficient ways of making powers in Hero, too, but the maths are more clear cut so it seemed like less of an issue.

GURPS seems to have more ‘real’ support materials, for example lists of weapons and other equipment which can be used as-is and which are distinct. Hero seems to have equipment lists which are more procedural in nature, though that is more about presentation rather than a meaningful difference between using the systems. Hero’s powers are also more clearly constructed of powers; some of GURPS magic systems work that way, but others do not use the powers system at all. To me that makes some of those systems more characterful in play, but again you can build anything you want in Hero.

The games are very similar in concept, functionally I think the main decider of which to chose would be what kind of character power band you want to operate in. GURPS seems to handle the human+ band better while Hero handles the super-human band better. Each can operate in the other‘s space but it takes work.

 

[Staffan]

The versatility of GURPS is its strength, an unmatched strength in the ttrpg hobby space. Seeing what Mutants & Masterminds is shifting to (4e), I'll probably go with GURPS Supers and have just one ttrpg for all of my games going forward. I can do this because GURPS can do any genre

I don't know if I'd call it "unmatched". There are lots of universal games these days. Chief among them is probably Savage Worlds, but you also have FATE for those who like their rules light, Cypher System for those who like it light in another way, or Genesys for those who like funky dice.

GURPS is a game driven by the idea that if you model things down to the smallest level you'll get a realistic result that's applicable anywhere. If you throw a grenade, you model both the concussive shockwave and the chance of getting hit by shrapnel separately. If you're using an axe you can't parry and attack in the same round, but you can if you're using a sword. You have a skill list that's about a mile long, two if you count all mandatory specializations (e.g. Electronics Operation (Medical) is different from Electronics Operation (Scientific), and you can have further penalties based on lack of familiarity). This is fine if you like that sort of thing, but it's hardly the only way to run a universal RPG.

 

[Theory of Games]

GURPS Lite is a great starting base for those new to the system.

I don't know if I'd call it "unmatched". There are lots of universal games these days. Chief among them is probably Savage Worlds, but you also have FATE for those who like their rules light, Cypher System for those who like it light in another way, or Genesys for those who like funky dice.

GURPS is a game driven by the idea that if you model things down to the smallest level you'll get a realistic result that's applicable anywhere. If you throw a grenade, you model both the concussive shockwave and the chance of getting hit by shrapnel separately. If you're using an axe you can't parry and attack in the same round, but you can if you're using a sword. You have a skill list that's about a mile long, two if you count all mandatory specializations (e.g. Electronics Operation (Medical) is different from Electronics Operation (Scientific), and you can have further penalties based on lack of familiarity). This is fine if you like that sort of thing, but it's hardly the only way to run a universal RPG.

100% Agree. GURPS' level of detail and versatility isn't for everyone, but IME of playing and running the other "generic" systems like HERO, SWADE and FATE, I found the others fall flat in many areas. It's one thing to label a system "universal", and another to actually produce a truly universal system. But I'm sure there are many people happy with those other games

 

[MGibster]

For me personally, I chose GURPS over Hero because I liked how GURPS handled gear and equipment better.

I chose GURPS over Champions because my friends were already playing the former. We never really gave Champions a chance because we were so heavily invested in GURPS.

In that same vein, I have found that the modular design of GURPS mostly does what it advertises and actually does a good job of being modular. So much so that I have been able to incorporate elements of other games (Edge of the Empire & D&D 4E) into how I handle done things in GURPS. Doing so hasn't broken the system.

GURPS really does a great job at what it set out to do. One thing I loved about the third edition sourcebooks was they always included ideas for how add more to the game. For example Imperial Rome had some ideas about how you might run a modern game where Rome was still around.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Just a note about one thing regarding GURPS (and this isn't a major issue, but it struck me as odd): for a game that tends to be pretty splitty when it comes to skills in most areas, its combat skills are surprisingly lumpy (at least in the core, I'm not going to speak of every add-on): Guns are used for ranged gun-like things whether its a conventional handgun or a laser rifle. (Its an area its hard to compare to Hero because how they handle weapon use is so radically different).

It just always struck me as a little odd; you expect that sort of lumping in Savage Worlds, but it kind of stands out in GURPS.

 

[Staffan]

Just a note about one thing regarding GURPS (and this isn't a major issue, but it struck me as odd): for a game that tends to be pretty splitty when it comes to skills in most areas, its combat skills are surprisingly lumpy (at least in the core, I'm not going to speak of every add-on): Guns are used for ranged gun-like things whether its a conventional handgun or a laser rifle. (Its an area its hard to compare to Hero because how they handle weapon use is so radically different).

It just always struck me as a little odd; you expect that sort of lumping in Savage Worlds, but it kind of stands out in GURPS.

GURPS has separate skills for Artillery, Beam Weapons, Guns, Gunner, and Liquid Projector (flame throwers, sprayers, and such), with numerous mandatory specialties within each of these skills (e.g. Guns (Pistol), Guns (Rifle), Guns (SMG), and Guns (Shotgun) are all separate skills defaulting to one another at -2, and then you add familiarity penalties to that which can get you up to -6 in addition to tech level penalties). They do lump all the Guns under "Guns", because the skills work similarly, but the different types are separate skills.

They do the same with melee weapons – there's a single "Melee weapon" entry, but it contains 22+ different skills separated into six different categories plus "others".

 

[dbm]

Indeed, as @Staffan says, within the Guns skill description it says specialisation in mandatory, and there are other limiting factors like differences in Tech Level (so using a WW2 sniper rifle would be more difficult if you are used to a modern sniper rifle - and the older rifle would have lower stats like accuracy and poorer optics, too of course).

GURPS has so many skills because it can be about anything. If I wanted to play a game about scientists and knowing which branches of science they are skilled in then GURPS has all the tools I need for that.

I expanded the thread title since we are starting to talk about much wider aspects of GURPS (which is cool ).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Generally speaking, HERO handles high fantasy more easily than GURPS. GURPS handles gritty Swords & Sorcery more easily than HERO.

So if you want fireball casting mages & god-slaying warriors, choose HERO. If you want protagonists who even have to take fights with castle guards seriously, choose GURPS.