GURPS Lite for 4.0 Now Available

[WizarDru]

Not exactly.

1. Your attributes, based on your description, come out to around 80-120 points. Your skills might jump that up to 100-150 points. Most of the GURPS advantages are cinematic, so we can probably assume you don't have them, or if you do, only at quirk level.
...
It's possible to build a really inefficient character, and it's a recognized fact that inefficient characters are underpowered for their power level. Most real human beings, alas, are inefficient.

That, and it's been my experience that folks tend to overestimate their abilities and ignore their own personal disadvantages when guestimating their own stats.

I was wondering how they were going to deal with how easy it was to make someone with a Parry high enough to work 90+ percent of the time, and I was hoping for some contest of skills type solution, not this...

Wow, you're right. Missed that on the previous pass through. I noticed PD wasn't there, but missed the change to the active defenses. Of course, I suspect PD is probably in the advanced rules, along with hit locations. GURPS Lite is meant to give an idea without overwhelming, so I can accept that. However, one of the things I most respected about GURPS, namely the variable defenses versus variable damage types, is not here. Maybe it's in the advanced rules, to reflect the difference between a mace and a rapier against chainmail, for example.

 

[Henry]

Regarding Tauton Ikhnos' post: I just love things like that. The one thing I DID like about GURPS was that you really COULD build yourself in that system. It's just really eerie to me to see a "deconstruction" like that. Whether mmu1 is worth 80 or 150 points, though, I'll leave up to him.

 

[JimAde]

I noticed the lack of skills defaulting to each other, too. There are also no prerequisites for skills. I hope both of those will come back in the non-Lite version. I know skill defaults are a pain but they're realistic and they make it possible to have a character who is generally good in a field.

I'm glad of the change to Dodge, at least. I don't think I've successfully dodged in GURPS more than a few times, and I've played a LOT of GURPS. Now you can actually make a high-dex character that's hard to hit. People who parry a lot will make combats last longer, if that's any consoloation

GURPS Martial Arts has rules for parrying as a contest. Maybe they'll show up as an "official option" in the new Basic Set.

Looks good overall.

 

[jaerdaph]

MY HATE OF GRUPS FORE KNOW NO LIMIT!

 

[mmu1]

Disclaimer: My point is not that I'm an amazing individual, and I don't want to come across as absurdly egotistical. The point I am trying to make is that the GURPS system presents a silly idea of what constitutes a truly exceptional person.

Not exactly.
1. Your attributes, based on your description, come out to around 80-120 points. Your skills might jump that up to 100-150 points. Most of the GURPS advantages are cinematic, so we can probably assume you don't have them, or if you do, only at quirk level. We still haven't counted your disadvantages, and don't forget that just being a decent person is a disadvantage in GURPS. Are you generally law abiding? Willing to do anything for your family? Ever served in the military? You get points back for those. And (likely common on these boards) things like poor vision, or being oblivious when focused on a task, also get points back. Most of your disadvantages will be less extreme than the GURPS versions of course, but they are probably at least -5 each.

Actually, according to the formula they have for calculating lifting capacity, I have 14 STR. If I only had 11 DEX and 12 IQ, that's 100 points already... And I don't have a 12 IQ, I'm smarter than I'm strong or athletic.

I definitely don't have any cinematic advantages, but I would qualify for Language Talent and probably a level of Artificer (talent with mechanical things and crafts). That's 20 points or so in mundane advantages.

Let's say I also have only 10 points worth of skills (not likely).

Disadvantages... First of all, you overstate your case and misreprsent things. Compulsive honesty is a GURPS disdvantage - not simply obeying the law in an everyday sort of way... Constantly worrying about your family to the point of distraction would be another one - but not simply being willing to do things to protect and help your family that any regular person would.

Not being psychotic, schizoid or compulisve, I don't have any mental GURPS disadvantages at more than quirk levels, and my only physical disadvantage at a non-quirk level is Overweight. But let's assume for the sake of argument I actually have -30 points of disadvantages, because I'm not being objective.

It puts me at 100 points, at a bare minimum.

2. Those point ranges assume your starting value. How old are you? How many "sessions" have you had? At 2-3 points per session, you could easily amass another 50-100 points on top of your starting value, mostly in skills and contacts and wealth. Your starting power level didn't change, though, and people don't become Heroic just because they're 70 years old.

You don't start at a particular age in GURPS, so that argument means nothing. You can be a starting 16 year old character, or a 36 year old one. I haven't had any adventures I can think of, so whatever I'm at is my "starting value."

3. Finally, these rules assume a built and designed character, which you aren't. Let's say that you end up being 150 points. A 150 point character would eat you for breakfast. So GURPS isn't really saying that you are Heroic - it's just saying that someone built on as many points as you would be Heroic. It's possible to build a really inefficient character, and it's a recognized fact that inefficient characters are underpowered for their power level. Most real human beings, alas, are inefficient.

"Built and designed character"? What does that mean? Built for what, gladiatorial combat? The system most certainly does not assume all characters are combat optimized, in fact, the 4th edition seems to try to discourage that.

Sure, a 150 point soldier would eat me for breakfast. So what? I'm not the killing machine in this party - I'm the ex-jock who's slowed down a bit from sitting enough in the lab all day, but can still handle himself and knows how to use a gun well if it comes to that. There you go, an instant character for a modern day X-Files type game.

150 points is NOT hero-material - it's enough to make an incredibly effective specialist, or an above average character with a diverse background. GURPS is so easy to min-max and break, it ends up making balanced characters absurdly weak for what they're supposed to be.

 

[tauton_ikhnos]

Henry, as far as overestimation goes, I think it's not so much a matter as overestimating themselves, and underestimating what a given number in the system means. That, and once you've established that you are above average (who isn't?), it is very difficult to put a precise number on how above average you are.

I usually put it like this:
8 = the bottom feeders of humanity
9-10 = most of half of the population
10 = split evenly between the category above and below
10-11 = most of half of the population
12 = the top 10% of the population
13 = the top 1% of the population
14 = rare folks indeed
15 = cinematic

I am therefore constantly surprised by how many folks put themselves at a 13, 14 or 15. Especially since most folks are better represented with talents and skills, and/or buying down Perception or Will or Move.

(And ST is an exception, as is already noted in the GURPS Lite document)

For myself, I'm an 11 IQ, 12 DEX, crap for ST and HT. Granted, I'm probably at the top end of 11 IQ, and I would almost certainly buy my Will to a 13 (yes, that's my ego in my pocket), but most tests put me a hair outside of the top 10%. I usually hit the top 15%.

That puts me at about 70 points, which t'ain't bad, before skills and disads.

 

[WizarDru]

Actually, according to the formula they have for calculating lifting capacity, I have 14 STR. If I only had 11 DEX and 12 IQ, that's 100 points already... And I don't have a 12 IQ, I'm smarter than I'm strong or athletic.

You can lift 313 pounds over your head with two hands? That's a pretty signifcant strength...it's double what a STR 10 person could lift. Consider that a ST 16 is doing almost 410 pounds...that's getting near olympic level stuff. A ST 18 is lifting 518 pounds.

All that said, it's a game, not a total reality simulation. Just like D&D, it make sacrifices of verisimilitude for balance. I don't doubt that by GURPS you're probably more than a 100 point character, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a balanced game. I still stand by the idea that it's very difficult to judge your own faults and put them in game terms. If you had an Odious Personal Habit, would you be able to judge that? I'm not sure I could, unless someone told me to my face about it. :\

 

[tauton_ikhnos]

Disclaimer: My point is not that I'm an amazing individual, and I don't want to come across as absurdly egotistical. The point I am trying to make is that the GURPS system presents a silly idea of what constitutes a truly exceptional person.

Yeah, I know, that's why I didn't say anything like "are you sure you're that high?" and instead focused on "with what you've said, here are the numbers".

Here's where I pegged you, based on your comments:
ST 14 = 6'1", above average, this is what I came up with. Great minds think alike!
IQ & DX = 11 or 12 each.
Total = 80 to 120

Based on your comments, I've amended that to 100, with ST 14, DX 11, IQ 12.

Skills = between 20 and 50 points, including the cost of a Talent or two
Disads = -15 to -20 total

Aso note that a 12 IQ is smarter than you are athletic already, and strength operates on a different relative scale (there is a far greater variation in ST than any other attribute in GURPS). To give an example, a power lifter capable of heaving 100 lbs over his head, one-handed, in one second, has a ST of 22. A Nobel prize winning scientist has an IQ of 15... maybe. So a 12 IQ v a 14 ST is smarter than you are strong, in terms of population.

Language Talent: I've known two people in my life who would easily qualify for this advantage. One spoke 7 languages and the other 9. The rules as is allow you to learn a language to the level of perfect fluency within 3 college years, or 1 immersion year. Just being able to communicate well with what you've learned is represented by your high IQ.

Artificer: Sure, sounds good.

That puts you at 100 attrib + 10 ads - 20 disads + 20 skills. That's 110, which is listed as the Heroic starting level, and if you were built like a PC, it would be. As it is, I'd say you'd make a good ex-jock scientist in an Exceptional campaign - you have more points, but you're not really built to eke the most out of those points.

Now let's look at an ex-jock scientist in a Heroic 110-pt X-files campaign.

ST 10, DX 12, IQ 13 = 100 points
(why? ST just isn't important in a modern campaign! one reason a built character is more efficient)
Ads: Charisma 10 pts, Wealth 10 pts
Disads: -55 (here is another reason a built character is more efficient)
Skills: 30 points
Leftovers: 15 points. Depending, this could go into Will (for X-files fright checks), significant wealth, or more skills. Regardless, it's basically candy, to either round out his abilities, or improve him within a specialty.

He's got better skills, charisma and wealth, and a better DX/IQ, on the same points. He prefers a handgun, but he's probably not bad with the karate, either. He's smarter than damn near anyone he knows, as agile as many top athletes, and he's got a ton of skills.

At any level of points you decide you're at, a built character will be better built than you. You don't have enough disadvantages, and you have wasteful stuff like talents and Strength.

150 points is NOT hero-material - it's enough to make an incredibly effective specialist, or an above average character with a diverse background. GURPS is so easy to min-max and break, it ends up making balanced characters absurdly weak for what they're supposed to be.

Speaking as someone who prefers balanced characters, I strongly disagree . Efficient character building doesn't have to mean specialization, as the ex-jock above demonstrates. And specialization does not automatically translate into efficient character building .

 

[mmu1]

You can lift 313 pounds over your head with two hands? That's a pretty signifcant strength...it's double what a STR 10 person could lift. Consider that a ST 16 is doing almost 410 pounds...that's getting near olympic level stuff. A ST 18 is lifting 518 pounds.

All that said, it's a game, not a total reality simulation. Just like D&D, it make sacrifices of verisimilitude for balance. I don't doubt that by GURPS you're probably more than a 100 point character, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a balanced game. I still stand by the idea that it's very difficult to judge your own faults and put them in game terms. If you had an Odious Personal Habit, would you be able to judge that? I'm not sure I could, unless someone told me to my face about it. :\

Nope... Not 313. The 4th edition GURPS Lite defines your "basic lift" - the weight you can raise above your head with one hand in one second - as (STxST)/5. I know I can do that with a 40lbs dumbell from recent experience. It translates into being able to lift 320lbs off the ground with both hands. (not over head)

It's also what 3rd edition lists as the standard ST for a 6' tall man. (or rather, it says that the average man with 14 ST is going to be around 6' tall).

Which kind of makes the idea that someone with ST of 12 is defined by how strong they are rather laughable...

 

[WayneLigon]

I game out pretty well...

Wayne Ligon
5'11" 230lbs
ST 9 [-10]; DX 10 [0]; IQ 11 [+20]; HT 10 [0].
Dmg 1d-2/1d-1; BL: 16 lbs
HP 10 [0]; Will 12 [0]; Per 12 [0]; FP 10 [0]
Basic Speed 5 [0]; Basic Move 5 [0]
Advantages
None
Disadvantages
Bad Sight (Nearsighted; Mitigator: Contacts, -60%) [-10]
Quirks
RPG Gamer
Phobia: Heights
Lazy
Dog Person
Allergic to cats & chicken
Skills
Computer Programming/8-10 [2]
Computer Operations/8-11 [1]
Karate-8 [1]
Research/8-10 [1]
Writing-11 [2]

I'm a standard average 25-point character who has not spent all his points from Disads. (Remember, in GURPS, if you start with 25 points you're a 25-point character regardless of the number of disads you add on).

I had a better Karate skill at one point but after five or more years of never using it or working out, it's degenerated a lot. Similar to my college skills. I have a BS in Psychology as well as IS but it's been so long since I've read in the field that I'm comfortable saying I have a default level for that. I'm slightly less than average in my profession, so 10 is the perfect number for that. I am overweight and fatigue easily; I think I have the quirk level of Fat, perhaps, or maybe the first level of the Fat disad. I can't remember what that was, but my Basic Speed and such goes down from that. I have poor stamina but I seldom ever am ill; I mark that as average.