Gwendilyn, 7th level character (title change)

Edena_of_Neith said:
Why, exactly, is a mithril breastplate so much better than elven chain?

It basically comes down to Max Dex bonus to AC, and Armor Check Penalty.

Mithril Full Plate has a Max Dex bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of -4.
Elven Chain has a Max Dex bonus of +4, and an Armor Check Penalty of -2
Mithril Breastplate has a Max Dex bonus of +5, and an Armor Check penalty of -1.
Mithril Chain Shirt has a Max Dex bonus of +6, and an armor check penalty of 0.

If your Dex is going to cap out at 16, you don't mind a 20 move, and you don't rely on skills affected by the armor check penalty, then Mithril Full Plate gives you the best overall AC.

If your Dex is going to cap out at 18 or higher and you want to use evasion and stealth and acrobatic skills, then you want the highest max Dex and lowest armor check penalty.

Dex of 18 = Mithril Chain (Elven Chain)
Dex of 20 = Mithril Breastplate
Dex of 22 = Mithril Chain Shirt
Dex of 24 or higher = start thinking about Bracers of armor.
 

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E_o_N: You seem to use UA options a whole lot. I'd just like to note that very few people use drawbacks and gestalt is not used in all that many campaigns either. UA is more inherantly optional than any other suppliament, so MinMaxing with it seems a bit more cheaty and works in far less campaigns than using any other WOTC book.
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
Wait a minute:

Also, in direct combat, Gwyndilyn is good at feinting, and if she succeeds can deliver a sneak attack and arterial strike (then retreat from combat with a 40 foot movement.)
If she cannot sneak attack in melee, she can deliver 3d8 + 6 hit points of damage per round with her large bastard swords.

Where, exactly, do you get 3d8 damage from? I would expect to see 2d8 (for a Large bastard sword) or 4d8 (2 each for two swords).

Also, there is never any reason to go with mithril (elven) chain over a mithril breastplate; by time you can afford mithril anything, the cost difference is negligable. And you can easily buy/upgrade a Dex-boosting item to get the extra +1 to AC from the max Dex.

The designers of 3e set the stats up in such a way as to make chainmail worthless. Really, for anyone wearing armor, it works out to three choices:

Chain shirt, mithril breastplate, fullplate

Which one depends on your max Dex. Dwarves, clerics, and relatively clumsy fighters are good candidates for fullplate. Barbarians can use mithril fullplate without penalty. Anyone with a Dex between 16 and 20 should use the breastplate. A mithril chain shirt is good for the Dex 22 types. Dex 24 and up ... bracers of armor start to look good.

(yes, I know D&D spells it 'mithral'. It's one of the stupidest-looking corruptions of a Tolkienism that I've seen in a long time.)
 

Uhh... arterial strike deals 1 (O-N-E) damage per round, until Heal or Cure has been used. Not very likely to kill anything at this level, really. Drink a potion of cure light wounds... all bleeding gone.

And while Move Silently and Hide +8 isn't bad, it's not so great either and still quite possible to get beaten even with untrained Listen and Spot... quite likely for anyone who has decent bonuses there.

Not sure, where you got blindsight from (meant Blind-Fight maybe?)... but in darkness there won't be any sneak attacks at all, so no arterial strike either. And it will be harder to hit anything in the first place (Blind-Fight only really works in melee, too, and does not negate the no sneak attack disadvantage from concealment).

And good at feinting? She doesn't even have Improved Feint, so it's feint and nothing else for a full round. Also +9 isn't that high, if you look at the modifiers you have to beat... Wis + Sense Motive ranks + BAB + 4 (for non-humanoids). An average human fighter with decent Wis (14) will have the same +9 already at this level... with no skill ranks at all.

Sorry, but I just think you try to add too much to the character. In theory this might look good, but I highly doubt it would work well in practice.

What I would do is drop the barbarian levels (make little sense to me for this character... mechanics aside) and the fighter levels... go ranger 2 / rogue 5, give yourself GOOD skills (not just mediocre), get decent sneak attack, and so on. No monkey grip silliness either, just get two longswords, ranger TWF and oversized TWF and PBS/PS/RS to be able to use the bow better... and Improved Initiative (that should be all the feats then... incouding the UA bonuses).

Well, that's what I would probably do, at least. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanks again, Caliban. May I presume that a mithril breastplate counts as light armor?

DM_Matt, it is not cheaty to use an official supplement. It IS true that few DMs will allow the character, but it is not cheaty. I wanted to clarify that difference.
In any case, these are theoretical characters. They are not intended for an actual game.
Also, I am not using gestalt. If I had used gestalt, I could have saved myself a lot of time and trouble. I'm trying to make viable characters using the standard rules (plus flaws ... and, flaws ARE flaws, and are problematic.)
 

Elephant, my goof. It should have been 6d8+6.
This assumes a large bastard sword does 2d8. I believe I was told that it did. Correct me if I am wrong.

I got 4d8 because at 7th level Gwyndilyn's BAB is +6/+1.
So, she can as a full action attack make 2 strikes with her primary hand. If she hits with both strikes, that's 2d8 + 4 (str 14)

Also, since she has two-weapon fighting, she can strike once with her off-hand. If she does this, her attack rolls for all attacks are at -4. If she hits, that's an extra 2d8+2.

I would consider 6d8+6 to be pretty good damage at 7th level. Gwyndilyn can, after all modifiers, make her full attack round at +4/-1 / +4.

But Gwyndilyn does not have Improved Two Weapon Fighting. She does not gain a second strike in her off-hand. I wish she did.
 

To Thanee:

The heal DC is 15 to stop the bleeding, after an arterial strike.
Any creature can try it. But heal is a standard action. An enemy can't staunch the flow of blood and attack both (although it could make a move action.)
A creature who fails it's DC check and is without curatives is dead. It's a simple matter of retreating from the scene and waiting for it to bleed to death.
Even if the being is healed by drinking a potion or from a cure spell, someone (either the target or one of his friends) must waste a standard action to aid him. And in 3rd edition, that means the caregiver is not there for his fellows that round.

Move silently and hide +8 isn't the greatest, no. But Gwyndilyn could not be above +15 in those categories (10th level, +2 racial bonus, +3 dex.)
I could give her more ranks in those two skills, to enable her to better achieve surprise. I think I will (Which is why I like your critical comments, folks: it helps me learn. So keep them coming! :) )

I meant to say Blind-Fight.
In total darkness there won't be sneak attacks, no.
But she is an elf, with low-light vision. In moonlight, she could see quite well. She could see well enough to make a sneak attack.
Half the time it is dark (by default, because it is nighttime.) The enemy, unless they have darkvision, needs light from somewhere. But if they light a campfire, or they light torches, or they have a lantern, then they are easy targets for a sneak attack.

Yes, concealment negates sneak attacks (to what extent, I'd have to look up.)
The point is, to advance to the point where you can see the targets and they cannot see you. Thus the move silently and hide. And thus, the blind-fight. I had hoped to give Gwyndilyn a stronger feat yet that compliments blind-fight. If she had darkvision, she would be a real killer in the woods at night. (Of course, this is where you need magical help.)

Yes, Gwyndilyn should have improved feint. And some other feats. Thus my article on feats, in RPG General. I'm attempting to find out what the limits are on feats, by the rules. Of course, flaws help (even if flaws can get you killed) by granting you two additional feats!
As for +9 in bluff, Gwyndilyn could have had a maximum bluff of +11 (10 ranks, +1 cha.) What can I say?

I choose the barbarian level on the premise that a speed of 40 is much better than a speed of 30. I could be wrong. It was a guess only. But it seemed to me that tactical movement was crucial (especially when you are trying to sneak attack, then run and hide, then sneak attack again, then run and hide, until your opponent dies of arterial strikes.)
I was considering given Gwyndilyn the dash feat, which would increase her speed to 45, and the run feat, which would quintuple her run and keep her dex modifiers during running.

I hardly claim to be an expert in building characters. I am not an expert. I'm guessing your builds would be far, far better.
But I can only try, and keep trying, until I get something reasonably decent. (And learn more, and memorize things, in the process.)

Juggling which feats to take (and when), which skills to take (and when), which classes to take (and when), and how they all stack together ... is a mind wrenching affair, to be honest.

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I like the ranger 2 levels idea a lot.
It grants you either Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting. Your choice.
Then, you can take the feats needed to gain the other weapons path.
Based on the number of feats required, I'd say you should take the rapid shot feat for ranger, since you only need one feat to learn two-weapon fighting.

Stacking sneak attack damage with rapid shot is nasty.
A 4th level rogue / 2nd level ranger would have 2 shots. If she gained surprise, she could fire one shot as a sneak attack. Then, if she gained initiative, fire another shot as a sneak attack (but her other shot on round 1 would be normal.)
If she hit with all three shots, damage would be 3d8 (longbow) + 4d6 (2 sneak attacks.) An average of 27 points of damage.
Not bad, for a 6th level character.

I guess the point is to figure out how to stack the rogue and the ranger, and your starting feats, to optimalize the character. That is something I will continue to attempt to do, with Gwyndilyn, until I succeed. :)

Thanks for the critique, Thanee. The more criticism, the better, I say. (After all, if you build a character poorly, the monsters won't criticize, they'd just kill your character!) :)
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
I would consider 6d8+6 to be pretty good damage at 7th level.

It is, if you manage to do so much... however...

Gwyndilyn can, after all modifiers, make her full attack round at +4/-1 / +4.

Let's assume a fairly average AC of 20 (not hard to come by at 7th level).

You will need 16+/20/16+ to hit, dealing 11 avg. damage per hit.

That's (25%+5%+25%) x 11 = 55% x 11 ~ 6 avg. damage per round against AC 20.

A 3rd level wizard does more with a 1st level spell.


A 7th-level 2H-fighter (BAB +7, Str 19 (started out with 16), Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, wielding a +1 Greatsword) would be at +13/+8 with 2d6+9 damage (16 avg. damage) per hit. Wearing a +1 Full Plate and with a Dex of 12 he would be at 20 AC.

(70%+45%) x 16 = 115% x 16 ~ 18 avg. damage per round against AC 20.

Using Power Attack 2 he would be at +11/+6 with 2d6+13 damage (20 avg. damage) per hit.

(60%+35%) x 20 = 95% x 20 ~ 19 avg. damage per round against AC 20.


Gwyn's avg. damage is only 1/3 of that of a fairly average combat-focused character.

I wouldn't call that good. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
It grants you either Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting. Your choice.
Then, you can take the feats needed to gain the other weapons path.
Based on the number of feats required, I'd say you should take the rapid shot feat for ranger, since you only need one feat to learn two-weapon fighting.

I would (if you want both pathes) choose the one for the Ranger weapon path, which you will use LESS. That is, if you are more focused on melee, take Rapid Shot, if you are more focused on ranged, take TWF, since if you are focused on range, you want PBS/PS, anyways, so the argument, that it takes two feats to get RS is moot then.

Thanks for the critique, Thanee.

Only trying to be helpful. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

Ok, I'm going to take Lady Gwyndilyn along the bladesinger road.
I am changing Gwyndilyn. She is not a 4 foot 6 inch tall elf. She is one of the tall elves, standing 6 feet in height.
Gwindylin (I shall call her that instead of Gwyndilyn) is not frail or meager of fortitude. But she is a noncombatant, in spite of all her training (the sight of blood does not agree with her, and she will never 'just get used to it') so she has a -2 on all attack rolls. And she is vulnerable as a result of her attitude (-1 to AC.) It will take two wish spells to offset these conditions, and Gwindylin is not likely to obtain two wishes anytime soon.

Also, Gwindylin has the high stats from a 5d6 high powered campaign. Thus, her stats are significantly higher than they should be.

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Lady Gwindylin of Varnaith, Bladesinger in Training

- Type: medium humanoid (elf, grey elf subtype)
- Description: 6 feet, 140 pounds, lithe and slender, long black hair, grey eyes, pale skin
- Character level 1, class level fighter 1st, alignment neutral good
- Abilities: strength 15, dexterity 17, constitution 13, intelligence 20, wisdom 11, charisma 12
- Base saves: Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +0
- Adjusted saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +0
- Hit dice (hit points) : 1d10+2 (12 hit points)
- Armor class: 18, touch 13, flat footed 14 (+1 dodge where applicable)
- Initiative: +4 (+4 dex)
- Speed: 30 feet (6 squares), space/reach: 5 feet/5 feet
- BAB/grapple: +1/+1
- Attacks: large longsword melee +1 (2d6+3 19-20/x2), large short sword melee +1 (1d8+3 19-20/x2), composite longbow ranged +5 (1d8 20/x3, ri 100 ft), large darts ranged +5 (1d6+2 20/x2, ri 20 ft)
- Special attacks: attacls with large weapons
- Special qualities: elf traits (+2 int, -2 con, +2 racial to saves (enchantment/charm), racial immunity (sleep), low-light vision, racial martial weapon proficiencies (longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, composite shortbow), racial skill bonuses (+2 listen, +2 search, +2 spot), racial detection (secret doors), racial languages common and elven, favored class wizard)
- Primary skills: climb +2 (4 ranks, str +2, breastplate -4), craft +9 (4 ranks, int +5), handle animal +5 (4 ranks, cha +1), intimidate +5 (4 ranks, cha +1), jump +2 (4 ranks, str +2, breastplate -4), ride +8 (4 ranks, dex +4), swim -2 (4 ranks, str +2, breastplate -8)
- Other skills: appraise +5 (0 ranks, int +5), balance +0 (0 ranks, dex +4, breastplate -4), bluff +1 (0 ranks, cha +1), concentration +1 (0 ranks, con +1), diplomacy +1 (0 ranks, cha +1), disguise +1 (0 ranks, cha +1), escape artist +0 (0 ranks, dex +4, breastplate -4), forgery +5 (0 ranks, int +5), gather information +1 (0 ranks, +1 cha), heal +0 (0 ranks, wis +0), hide +0 (0 ranks, dex +4, breastplate -4), intimidate +1 (0 ranks, cha +1), listen +2 (0 ranks, wis +0, racial +2), move silently +0 (0 ranks, dex +4, breastplate -4), perform +1 (0 ranks, cha +1), search +6 (0 ranks, int +5, racial +2), sense motive +0 (0 ranks, wis +0), spot +2 (0 ranks, wis +0, racial +2), survival +0 (0 ranks, wis +0), use rope +4 (0 ranks, dex +4)

- Feats: combat expertise, dodge, monkey grip, two-weapon fighting
- Drawbacks: noncombatant, vulnerable

- Items: breastplate, large longsword (2), large short sword, longbow, quiver and 20 arrows, 10 large darts, other items
 
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