D&D 5E (2014) GWF vs. TWF Fighting styles

[Zardnaar]

Without feats they are roughly as good. With feats the extra cleave attack tends to give GWF the edge. If you can offset the -5 to hit for +10 damage GWF leaves TWF in the dust.

 

[jgsugden]

... and in games where advantage is easier to obtain, such as ones using the flank alternate rules, gwf and that -5/+10 shine, but when you consider that you can get fighter 11 then multiclass to get rogue sneak attack with 2wf....

In theend, both options are very effective. If you pick the one that seems like more fun, you won't be regretting it.

 

[Xeviat]

I just quickly tested "what kind of magic item bonus damage would be needed to balance gwf and twf on a 20th level fighter" ... It was +18 damage per hit ... I'm thinking the fighter could use a second offhand attack at 11th level.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Without feats they are roughly as good. With feats the extra cleave attack tends to give GWF the edge. If you can offset the -5 to hit for +10 damage GWF leaves TWF in the dust.

Yep if you change the -5/+10 mechanic to +1 stat, things are fine. If not, GWM and SS are both broken.

 

[Kryx]

Yep if you change the -5/+10 mechanic to +1 stat, things are fine.

TWF is still left clearly in the dust. It is inherently bad compared to Polearm especially, less so to GWM, but 5+ GWM wins easily. My suggestions are to either give Rend (Double prof damage if both a main hand and offhand attack hit) or a second bonus attack at 11 as part of Dual Wielder. I'm still debating between the two.

I removed -5/+10 from my games, but after doing some calculations that is not the best option. Ranged damage falls quite a bit and Paladin damage outweighs Fighter due to improved divine smite and smiting. The way the difference in styles is balanced in the normal game is -5/+10 which the paladin gives up a lot of smite and improved divine smite to get a small boost in normal weapon whereas the fighter doesn't.

I use -3/+6 now as @mellored recommended a long time ago on the Wizards forums (and now here). Though I allow it for every weapon class (monk included). It seems to be much better balanced. (see the Houserules page on my DPR sheet for where my current balance is)

My DPR of Classes shows DPR for many styles.

 

[Xeviat]

Kryx is right. Even if you give the TWFer the Dual Wielder feat and you give NOTHING to the GWFer, the GWFer is ahead of the TWFer at level 5, and it only gets worse. At least they have +1 AC in that situation.

 

[Kryx]

At least they have +1 AC in that situation.

They don't though. By 5 (or 6 at the latest going by DMG treasure hordes) a GWF has plate at which point TWF is 3 AC behind if they wear Light armor (12+3 = 15 AC), or 1 AC if they wear Medium Armor and have 2 dex (15+2).

 

[Xeviat]

I do all of my comparisons by comparing equal characters in all regards. So, my hypothetical TWFer has the same Str and Dex scores as my GWFer. If they go for Dex instead, they trade AC for Stealth and Initiative. Medium Armor already shows that the designers think +1 AC is worth Disadvantage to Stealth.

Now, at 4th level, yes, you'd be giving up a Str or Dex adjustment for Duel Wielder; that's not the time to take it. Maxing Str or Dex is going to be more important at the low levels, especially as it already gives to hit and damage.

 

[Kryx]

Any doc you use? I'd be curious to see it. Do you take into account advantage and resources like Fighter trip or Barbarian rage? I have all that mapped out, would just like to compare.

I do all of my comparisons by comparing equal characters in all regards.

Comparing everything equally isn't comparable to real play as boosting stats comes at a tradeoff of not picking feats. In most cases feats and stats are mostly even

If they go for Dex instead, they trade AC for Stealth and Initiative. Medium Armor already shows that the designers think +1 AC is worth Disadvantage to Stealth.

One could try to argue that +1 AC is worth Stealth and +2 Init. I wouldn't agree, but that should be the argument, not "TWF has +1 AC".

Now, at 4th level, yes, you'd be giving up a Str or Dex adjustment for Duel Wielder; that's not the time to take it. Maxing Str or Dex is going to be more important at the low levels, especially as it already gives to hit and damage.

Agreed. My Ranger takes it at 12 after bumping Str/Dex, Fighter at 8.

 

[Xeviat]

My arguement was Duel Wielder has +1 AC. It's there in the feat. But until you max your Str, you're giving up to hit for AC, which MAY be good for your build, but it's not a decision I'd make.

I have a convoluted spread sheet. I haven't gotten to Barbarian yet; I've mostly looked at champion, assassin, and devoted paladin; I've looked at the ranger a little. I don't take advantage into account, but I test against monster default AC which nets a 65% hit chance if you start with a 16 Str or Dex and increase it at 4th and 8th. I haven't tested feats because I'm currently trusting that the feats are reasonably balanced against ability score adjustment to primary stats. This means my numbers are off post 8th level, but that's fine for me. I'm just eyeballing the classes to help me with making variants and new subclasses.

I keep hearing people say that TWFing is a Dex thing. Nothing requires it to be. Str can TWF just as good as Dex, and there is a trade off between AC and Stealth/Initiative and Str/Dex skills and saves. But then again, I think there should be two-handed finesse (non-heavy) weapons, so I'm in the minority on that one.

Since both Str and Dex can use the duelist style, I think they were meant to be even with each other, just a little different.