D&D 5E GWF vs. TWF Fighting styles

[Kryx]

I'd suggest you instead calculate the chance to hit. See how I do it. Things like -5/+10 change it significantly. So does investing in a stat boost instead of a feat (polearm for example still wants polearm at 4). Things like Battlemaster Trip giving advantage is huge for melee. Ignoring cover for sharpshooter (which I don't use in houserules) is also significant.

I'm just eyeballing the classes to help me with making variants and new subclasses.

Feel free to see/alter mine to your needs.


Beyond AC I agree that Str and Dex are mostly even, with Str having higher damage options and Dex having init. Most everything else is comparable.

 

[Xeviat]

I don't need a calculator that gets that granular. I assume PCs start with a primary 16 and up it at 4th and 8th. If they take a feat instead, super, but I'm not testing feats. I'm trusting the others here to tell me if a feat is too good or weak.

Either way, my point is that even with Duel Wielder for free on the TWFer and nothing on the GWFer, the GWFer is still ahead. Clearly, the fighter needs something for TWFing. The ranger and the rogue are fine (though, as you've noticed, the Hunter Ranger could use a 3rd Multiattack option for level 11, something for multiattacking a single target, for those who don't want to aoe all the time, and their capstone stinks).

 

[CapnZapp]

Hi All. It was mentioned by someone in another thread that the GWF trumps 2WF significantly. Can I please ask by just how much this can be? I would have thought that they would have been fairly balanced in the grand scheme, given the 'extra accuracy' 2WF gives via a bonus action attack.

If you don't use feats, don't worry about it.

If you don't expect your campaign to last much past level 11, don't worry about it.

If you don't constantly compare to a greatweapon or ranged character (most commonly because another player plays one in your party), don't worry about it.

It really is only at very high levels and only if your party ALSO includes a character WITH the Greatweapon Master or Sharpshooter feat, you will ever have any real cause for regret.

 

[Kryx]

It really is only at very high levels and only if your party ALSO includes a character WITH the Greatweapon Master or Sharpshooter feat, you will ever have any real cause for regret.

You should worry about TWF if you have any of the following conditions:

• You're planning on playing above level 4 and allow feats
• You're planning on playing above level 10.

TWF still gets destroyed after 11 even without feats.

 

[Zardnaar]

My arguement was Duel Wielder has +1 AC. It's there in the feat. But until you max your Str, you're giving up to hit for AC, which MAY be good for your build, but it's not a decision I'd make.

I have a convoluted spread sheet. I haven't gotten to Barbarian yet; I've mostly looked at champion, assassin, and devoted paladin; I've looked at the ranger a little. I don't take advantage into account, but I test against monster default AC which nets a 65% hit chance if you start with a 16 Str or Dex and increase it at 4th and 8th. I haven't tested feats because I'm currently trusting that the feats are reasonably balanced against ability score adjustment to primary stats. This means my numbers are off post 8th level, but that's fine for me. I'm just eyeballing the classes to help me with making variants and new subclasses.

I keep hearing people say that TWFing is a Dex thing. Nothing requires it to be. Str can TWF just as good as Dex, and there is a trade off between AC and Stealth/Initiative and Str/Dex skills and saves. But then again, I think there should be two-handed finesse (non-heavy) weapons, so I'm in the minority on that one.

Since both Str and Dex can use the duelist style, I think they were meant to be even with each other, just a little different.

Strength based dual wielding just sucks worse than dex based generally. From a char op the only way I would go dual wield is with a ranger or multiclass to get an extra dice of damage via Hex/Hunters Mark. The Tempest Ranger from EN5sider is also a decent at dual wielding. Dex has a lot more out of combat uses via skills.

On thing I have noticed is Great Weapon fighters do miss a lot when they use the -5 part without a lot of party buffing. The Dex based PC want get hosed as much at ranged and can try and squeeze in some extra damage via surprise rounds.

 

[Xeviat]

I'm not comparing feats.

 

[Sezarious]

Oh look, I not worried about picking either. I generally am a little guilty of min/maxing, but at the same time, my build has to be fun too. I'm by no means a great mathematician, but I know some people here are pretty good and was more curious than anything. I wonder what you could house rule to balance out TWF...

 

[Kryx]

I wonder what you could house rule to balance out TWF...

I suggested them above. Either render or second bonus attack as part of dual wielded that kicks in at 11.

If you use -5/+10 then I suggest you allow a twf version with the other half being +1 dex perhaps.

 

[juggerulez]

TWF sacrifices impact in order to get extra versatility (extra ac, extra chances to proc a crit, etc)
GWF sacrifices versatility in order to slap as hard as you can, but unless you can benefit of advantage or you overmatch opponent's ac with your hit ratio, you'll end up performing poorly.

a champion twf that crits on 18-20 is an absolute mean machine
a champion gwf that hits regularly has the best ingame output of consistent damage

So, yes, if you plan to play in the low-end (1st-4th) never go twf unless you like to roleplay more than to perform as a melee combatant; if you play in the top tier, then going for TWF is viable indeed, but only if you can find yourself critting regularly.

 

[Sezarious]

I suggested them above. Either render or second bonus attack as part of dual wielded that kicks in at 11.

If you use -5/+10 then I suggest you allow a twf version with the other half being +1 dex perhaps.

Whoops. I think I may have even read your previous post but just didn't take it in. Sorry about that . That sounds like a good suggestion.