D&D 5E GWM, SS, CEx: updated!

[ro]

Dual-wielding H.Xbow isn't supported in the system anyway. You only get to loose one bolt with the primary (as no hand free to reload) and then one bonus bolt with the secondary. Also, the situation envisioned is that with your melee weapon, you give foes a reason to keep back, letting you get a clean shot. I'm not seeing why another ranged attack should be supposed to help with that.

Crossbow Expert in the PHB makes dual-wielding crossbows supported; it is not otherwise. This is cool. This is also a big part of the feat, maybe even the most clear purpose for its existence. Why have the feat at all if it isn't about dual-wielding hand crossbows in melee?

This is why we need to adjust it to carve out that role and similar, while blocking OP combinations.

The reasoning of making foes keep back may not be as direct, but at the same time, this is not the point of melee dual-wielding, for in that case the second strike would be at disadvantage due to the keep-backing. I like your reasoning for RP, but it doesn't apply across the board.

Without further analysis we can make an odds-on guess that any caster with Fireball on their list is better than all martials, at least so far as damage-dealing is concerned.

This is true, but Fireball has lots of collateral damage for all casters except Evoker Wizards and Sorcerers. Wiping out your allies is a pretty big drawback. There are single-target spells, of course, that could be considered.

For me, the ideal balance is where casters are best at X, ranged is best at Y, melee is best at Z and so on. We can make everyone best... just at different things.

Caster overshadow has always been the footprints in the butter of D&D: everyone politely ignores them... explodes into a rant... and then goes back to politely ignoring them.

Great balance in RPG broadens great strategies, letting more character concepts shine. I don't think casters need to be a problem at all, and I don't think a feat (or two) could easily address the issue.

To me I think of playing a martial as playing Batman. Batman is in a world of superheroes with "magical" powers, but he is just an above average guy with lots of great tools. Lots of the fun of Batman is that he is trying to be as good as others with superpowers and shut down incredible foes without that super giftedness. (Although, he may have a super mind.)

In D&D, martials are "ordinary" characters in a world of magic who bravely go toe-to-toe with magic and sometimes bend small bits of it to their benefit. Magic is powerful stuff, but the best martial discovers ways to go on without and against it.

This is just one way to view things, of course.

 

[Oofta]

Crossbow Expert in the PHB makes dual-wielding crossbows supported; it is not otherwise. This is cool. This is also a big part of the feat, maybe even the most clear purpose for its existence. Why have the feat at all if it isn't about dual-wielding hand crossbows in melee?

You can't reload if you don't have a free hand, the PHB was errata'ed.

Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.​

[emphasis added]

To a certain degree you can get around this by having multiple hand-crossbows by firing, dropping firing, pulling next hand crossbow depending on your DM.

But you can't just keep shooting endlessly while holding two weapons.

 

[ro]

You can't reload if you don't have a free hand, the PHB was errata'ed.

Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.​

[emphasis added]

To a certain degree you can get around this by having multiple hand-crossbows by firing, dropping firing, pulling next hand crossbow depending on your DM.

But you can't just keep shooting endlessly while holding two weapons.

I see. But isn't this the point of the part of the feat that says, "You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient"?

 

[Oofta]

I see. But isn't this the point of the part of the feat that says, "You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient"?

I would rule that it just means that you can load more than one quarrel per round. Common sense - you need a free hand, the quarrels don't magically load themselves (unless it's a magical crossbow of course).

Your DM can always make whatever ruling they want.

 

[FrogReaver]

I would rule that it just means that you can load more than one quarrel per round. Common sense - you need a free hand, the quarrels don't magically load themselves (unless it's a magical crossbow of course).

Your DM can always make whatever ruling they want.

Oh god. Not another CE thread that debates about the rules and needing a free hand. Those tend to end up in very bad places. At one point one even turned into a discussion on gravity and walking through walls and whether fire burns you and a hole host of other silly things. You remember right?

 

[Oofta]

Oh god. Not another CE thread that debates about the rules and needing a free hand. Those tend to end up in very bad places. At one point one even turned into a discussion on gravity and walking through walls and whether fire burns you and a hole host of other silly things. You remember right?

LOL the thread that spawned a thousand posts. Don't remind me, I'd rather forget those dark days.

 

[FrogReaver]

LOL the thread that spawned a thousand posts. Don't remind me, I'd rather forget those dark days.

LOL. But weren't you one of it's biggest contributors? I demand the walk of shame!

 

[Oofta]

LOL. But weren't you one of it's biggest contributors? I demand the walk of shame!

THAT THREAD SHALL NOT BE SPOKEN OF AGAIN.

Does it help that I typed in all caps?

 

[clearstream]

I see. But isn't this the point of the part of the feat that says, "You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient"?

Please check PHB 146/147 and you will see that Loading and Ammunition are two separate weapon properties. The original version of CEx. does not obviate Ammunition, only Loading. Errata clarifies that the bonus action shot for Hand Crossbow supplies ammo and looses a bolt.

About Fireballs. In play I'm finding that casters can usually get the edge of Fireball to neatly land on foes while avoiding allies. However, in cases where Fireball is no good we're assuming Fire Bolt anyway.

Regarding throwing a twig to martials: Wizard can threaten that amount of damage, and still know twenty other spells that do powerful stuff - movement, utility, hiding, information gathering, etc - with perhaps a dozen of those in mind ready to cast.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

But if you have to make a melee attack, someone dual wielding hand crossbows wouldn't qualify, which is rather silly for Crossbow Expert. I think getting to reuse the same hand crossbow is silly, too, but dual wielding hand crossbows should be ok.

For sustained fire, it does make sense that you can get more shots out of a single hand crossbow than when you're holding one in each hand though.

(Of course it does require the acceptance of medieval-level hand crossbows as viable weapons in the first place. - But that's not at question here.)